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<p>Dear all,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Rivers actually provide two alternative and conflicting contexts
for the interpretation of "left" and "right". While the
assumption underlying the Parisian and (I'm guessing) Ukrainian
case is that left and right are determined in relationship to the
*downstream* direction of flow, a major river on the island of
Sumatra in Indonesia, the Kampar, offers an opposite association
of left and right. The Kampar has two large tributaries, named
"Kampar Kiri" (Kampar left) and "Kampar Kanan" (Kampar right).
Now the general direction of flow of the river is from west to
east, but of the two tributaries, Kampar Kiri is further south,
and Kampar Kanan further north. I would assume that their names
make reference to the perspective of a boat travelling *upstream*
on the united Kampar, reaching the confluence of the two
tributaries and having to decide which one to take; from the
boat's perspective, the choice is between left, or Kampar Kiri,
and right, or Kampar Kanan.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>David<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05/03/2021 12:41, Maia Ponsonnet
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MEAPR01MB3046E792D5BCC74924D1A0C6AF969@MEAPR01MB3046.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com">
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
of course there is Paris-Rive-Gauche. </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
but on the other hand I'd say it's partly lexicalized. </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
people much more rarely talk about "rive droite", and I don't
think the terminology applies in, says, Lyon with the Rhône for
instance? </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Maïa</div>
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<span style="font-size:small">Dr Maïa Ponsonnet</span><br
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Lingtyp <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
behalf of Tilman Berger <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tberger@uni-tuebingen.de"><tberger@uni-tuebingen.de></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 5 March 2021 6:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Testing a generalization about
spatial reference frames</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>I would like to support this point, that "left" and "right"
can be lexicalized toponyms. There is the distinction of
"Left-bank Ukraine" (<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);
font-family:sans-serif; font-size:14px; font-style:normal;
font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal;
font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2;
text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none;
white-space:normal; widows:2; word-spacing:0px;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255);
text-decoration-style:initial;
text-decoration-color:initial; display:inline!important;
float:none">Лівобережна Україна)</span> and "Right<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34); font-family:sans-serif;
font-size:14px; font-style:normal;
font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal;
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start;
text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal;
widows:2; word-spacing:0px;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255);
text-decoration-style:initial;
text-decoration-color:initial">-bank Ukraine"
(Правобережна Україна), where "left" means the western
bank and "right" the eastern. These terms have been in use
since the 17th century.</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34); font-family:sans-serif;
font-size:14px; font-style:normal;
font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal;
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start;
text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal;
widows:2; word-spacing:0px;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255);
text-decoration-style:initial;
text-decoration-color:initial">Best wishes</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34); font-family:sans-serif;
font-size:14px; font-style:normal;
font-variant-ligatures:normal; font-variant-caps:normal;
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:2; text-align:start;
text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal;
widows:2; word-spacing:0px;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255);
text-decoration-style:initial;
text-decoration-color:initial">Tilman<br>
</span></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="x_moz-cite-prefix">Am 05.03.21 um 11:05 schrieb
David Gil:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>Relative terms making reference to "left" or "right" may
also be lexicalized to form toponyms. For example, the
country name Yemen is actually a lexicalization of the
Arabic word for "right", drawing upon an canonical
orientation facing the rising sun to the east.</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="x_moz-cite-prefix">On 05/03/2021 10:36, Dmitry
Nikolaev wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Juergen,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't know what level of conventionalisation you
are looking for, but speakers of Russian, at least
those who grew up in large cities, tend in general to
avoid using geocentric terms and feel uncomfortable
using them, and if it is at all possible to say "The
lake is to the right of the hill", I would personally
do so. A quick googling showed that this phraseology
is quite frequent in route descriptions, and this
YouTube video literally advertises a plot of land "to
the left of lake Veselovka".<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My best,</div>
<div>Dmitry<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Fri, 5 Mar 2021
at 07:26, Bohnemeyer, Juergen <<a
href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex; border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);
padding-left:1ex">
Dear all — I’d like to solicit your help with a
generalization. I’m wondering whether anybody is aware
of a counterexample:<br>
<br>
It is well known that there are communities whose
members regularly use geocentric terms in reference to
the speaker’s own body, as in
<br>
<br>
(1) ‘My western/downhill arm hurts’. <br>
<br>
E.g., Laughren (1978) mentions this phenomenon in
reference to Warlpiri. Levinson (2003: 4) notes that
the practice exists among speakers of Guugu Yimithirr
(Pama-Nyungan, Queensland). Haun & Rapold (2011)
present an experimental study of the practice with
speakers of ≠Akhoe Hai||om (Khoekhoe, Namibia).<br>
<br>
Now, I’m interested in what you might consider
something of an inverse of this kind of use: the use
of relative frames at the geographic scale, as in<br>
<br>
(2) ‘The lake is to the right of the hill’<br>
<br>
My generalization is that there doesn’t seem to be any
community in which the type of use exemplified by (2)
is conventional.<br>
<br>
That is to say, of course we can easily imagine
situations in which English speakers might exchange
something like (2):<br>
<br>
* A speaker looking at the lake and hill might use (2)
to describe what she sees to an interlocutor who
doesn’t have visual access to the scene. The speaker
might use relative language in this case in order to
produce a vivid image of the scene as it presents
itself to her. <br>
<br>
* A speaker looking at representations of the hill and
lake on a map might use (2) metonymically.
<br>
<br>
However, I’m unaware of a community in which something
like (2) would be a conventional way of locating
landscape entities with respect to one another in the
absence of visual access to (representations of) them.
<br>
<br>
(One could argue that (2) is pragmatically
semi-infelicitous in such a context since the truth of
(2) depends on the location of the observer, which is
usually more variable than that of the hill and lake.
However, even though the truth of (1) similarly
changes with the speaker’s orientation, it is presumed
to be an entrenched strategy for this context in
several cultures. My interest is partly in this
asymmetry.)<br>
<br>
I’m curious whether people are aware of
counterexamples. <br>
<br>
Thanks! — Juergen<br>
<br>
Haun, D. M. B. & C. J. Rapold. (2011). Variation
in memory for body movements across cultures. Current
Biology 19(23): R1068-1069.<br>
<br>
Laughren,M. (1978). Directional terminology in
Warlpiri. in Th. Le and M. McCausland (eds.), Working
papers in language and linguistics, 8: 1–16.
Launceston: Tasmanian College of Advanced Education.<br>
<br>
Levinson, S. C. (2003). Space in language and
cognition. Cambridge: CUP.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">jb77@buffalo.edu</a><br>
Web: <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a> <br>
<br>
Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to
schedule a call at any time. I will in addition hold
Tu/Th 4-5pm open specifically for remote office hours.<br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light
Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) <br>
<br>
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<pre class="x_moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
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<pre class="x_moz-signature" cols="72">--
Tilman Berger
Slavisches Seminar
Universitaet Tuebingen
Wilhelmstr. 50
D-72074 Tuebingen
E-Mail: <a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tberger@uni-tuebingen.de" moz-do-not-send="true">tberger@uni-tuebingen.de</a>
Homepage: <a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://uni-tuebingen.de/de/135724" moz-do-not-send="true">https://uni-tuebingen.de/de/135724</a></pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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