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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">… and of course the
</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">山陽</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">(sany</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">ō</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">)
and </span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">山陰</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">(san’in) areas (and railway lines) in Japan … on the sunny (Southern) and shady (Northern) side of the mountains, resp. Hartmut<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org>
<b>På vegne af </b>Randy J. LaPolla<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 5. marts 2021 12:32<br>
<b>Til:</b> Bernhard Wälchli <bernhard@ling.su.se><br>
<b>Cc:</b> LINGTYP <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Testing a generalization about spatial reference frames<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi All,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In Old Chinese, <i>zuǒ</i> <span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">
左</span><span lang="JA"> </span>‘left’ and <i>yòu</i> <span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">
右</span><span lang="JA"> </span>‘right’ were used for ‘east’ and ‘west’ respectively, e.g. Yangzhou was called
<i>Huái zuǒ míng dū </i><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">淮左名都</span><span lang="JA">
</span>‘famous city east of the Huai river'. The Chinese had a strong orientation to the sun, and this is reflected in how they talked about things and named things. Aside from left and right, which are based on facing south/the sun, place names were often
given with respect to the sun in an interesting way, e.g. the word <span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">
陽（阳）</span>yang (as in yin/yang <span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">
☯️</span>) was used to refer to both the south of a mountain and the north of a river, e.g. the parts of each that got the most sun, e.g.
<span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">衡陽</span> Hengyang, a town on the south side of Heng Mountain in Hunan, and
<span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">洛陽</span> Luoyang, a town on the north side of the Luo river in Henan. (Btw, other names used cardinal directions, such as Hunan ’south of the Lake’ and Henan ’south of the river’)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Randy<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">-----</span></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white"> </span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:#222222;background:white">（羅</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#222222;background:white">仁地</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:#222222;background:white">）</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">Professor of Linguistics, with courtesy appointment in Chinese, School of Humanities </span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">Nanyang Technological University</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">HSS-03-45, 48 Nanyang Avenue </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">| <span class="apple-style-span">Singapore
639818</span></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white"><a href="http://randylapolla.info/">http://randylapolla.info/</a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">(<a href="http://personal.ntu.edu.sg/randylapolla">personal.ntu.edu.sg/randylapolla</a>)</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">Most recent books:</span></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">The Sino-Tibetan Languages, 2nd Edition (</span></i></span><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">2017)</span></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white"><a href="https://www.routledge.com/The-Sino-Tibetan-Languages-2nd-Edition/LaPolla-Thurgood/p/book/9781138783324">https://www.routledge.com/The-Sino-Tibetan-Languages-2nd-Edition/LaPolla-Thurgood/p/book/9781138783324</a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">Sino-Tibetan Linguistics </span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">(2018)</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white"><a href="https://www.routledge.com/Sino-Tibetan-Linguistics/LaPolla/p/book/9780415577397"><span style="color:#954F72">https://www.routledge.com/Sino-Tibetan-Linguistics/LaPolla/p/book/9780415577397</span></a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 5 Mar 2021, at 5:18 PM, Bernhard Wälchli <<a href="mailto:bernhard@ling.su.se">bernhard@ling.su.se</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear Jürgen and Dmitry,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">In some languages it is quite common to speak of “left-side” and “right-side” of rivers, which is an interesting in-between case between
relative and absolute frames of reference. In fact, despite ‘left’ and ‘right’, the frame is rather absolute with rivers, whose orientation remains constant. For (Austrian) German, see for instance “Die Donau linksufrig zwischen Stromkilometer 1899,7 und 1901,9
und die „Orther Kehre“ mit Jahreskarte!” (<a href="https://www.bundesforste-fischerei.at/d/1017-donau-orth">https://www.bundesforste-fischerei.at/d/1017-donau-orth</a>). So, as soon as you have an impressive dominant river, you can build your absolute reference
system nicely with left and right.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">In Livonian, the name for Courland (Latvian<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Kurzeme</i>) is<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>kura:-mo:</i>;<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>mo:</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>is
‘land’ and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>kura:</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>is 'left'. The etymology of the word for Couronians is a matter of debate (as is the etymology of the Livonian word for ‘left’, which perhaps is a
Baltic loan), but at least in terms of Livonian folk-etymology it is the land on the left side of the river (unclear whether the river meant is Daugava or Lielupe, both of them are quite impressive).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">In a similar sense, cardinal directions are often quite relative. In German, the Baltic Sea is Ostsee "Eastern Sea", but in Estonian
it is Lääne-meri "West[GEN]-sea" (I have never managed to understand why it is Itämeri "East Sea" in Finnish).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Bernhard<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Lingtyp
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Dmitry Nikolaev <<a href="mailto:dsnikolaev@gmail.com">dsnikolaev@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, March 5, 2021 9:36:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>LINGTYP<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Testing a generalization about spatial reference frames</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Dear Juergen,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I don't know what level of conventionalisation you are looking for, but speakers of Russian, at least those who grew up in large cities, tend in general to avoid using geocentric
terms and feel uncomfortable using them, and if it is at all possible to say "The lake is to the right of the hill", I would personally do so. A quick googling showed that this phraseology is quite frequent in route descriptions, and this YouTube video literally
advertises a plot of land "to the left of lake Veselovka".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">My best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Dmitry<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 07:26, Bohnemeyer, Juergen <<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Dear all — I’d like to solicit your help with a generalization. I’m wondering whether anybody is aware of a counterexample:<br>
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It is well known that there are communities whose members regularly use geocentric terms in reference to the speaker’s own body, as in<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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(1) ‘My western/downhill arm hurts’.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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E.g., Laughren (1978) mentions this phenomenon in reference to Warlpiri. Levinson (2003: 4) notes that the practice exists among speakers of Guugu Yimithirr (Pama-Nyungan, Queensland). Haun & Rapold (2011) present an experimental study of the practice with
speakers of ≠Akhoe Hai||om (Khoekhoe, Namibia).<br>
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Now, I’m interested in what you might consider something of an inverse of this kind of use: the use of relative frames at the geographic scale, as in<br>
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(2) ‘The lake is to the right of the hill’<br>
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My generalization is that there doesn’t seem to be any community in which the type of use exemplified by (2) is conventional.<br>
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That is to say, of course we can easily imagine situations in which English speakers might exchange something like (2):<br>
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* A speaker looking at the lake and hill might use (2) to describe what she sees to an interlocutor who doesn’t have visual access to the scene. The speaker might use relative language in this case in order to produce a vivid image of the scene as it presents
itself to her.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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* A speaker looking at representations of the hill and lake on a map might use (2) metonymically.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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However, I’m unaware of a community in which something like (2) would be a conventional way of locating landscape entities with respect to one another in the absence of visual access to (representations of) them.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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(One could argue that (2) is pragmatically semi-infelicitous in such a context since the truth of (2) depends on the location of the observer, which is usually more variable than that of the hill and lake. However, even though the truth of (1) similarly changes
with the speaker’s orientation, it is presumed to be an entrenched strategy for this context in several cultures. My interest is partly in this asymmetry.)<br>
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I’m curious whether people are aware of counterexamples.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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Thanks! — Juergen<br>
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Haun, D. M. B. & C. J. Rapold. (2011). Variation in memory for body movements across cultures. Current Biology 19(23): R1068-1069.<br>
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Laughren,M. (1978). Directional terminology in Warlpiri. in Th. Le and M. McCausland (eds.), Working papers in language and linguistics, 8: 1–16. Launceston: Tasmanian College of Advanced Education.<br>
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Levinson, S. C. (2003). Space in language and cognition. Cambridge: CUP.<br>
<br>
--<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a><br>
Web:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to schedule a call at any time. I will in addition hold Tu/Th 4-5pm open specifically for remote office hours.<br>
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There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
(Leonard Cohen) <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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