<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>Jocelyn's <i>port/starboard</i> examples are very nice, as they
essentially mean 'left' and 'right' from the perspective of the
vehicle.</p>
<p>Whereas modern ships and airplanes are built asymmetrically to
allow boarding on the left/port side, I have not noticed any
similar asymmetries in the design of traditional boats such as the
Austronesian outrigger, which, in my recollection at least, seem
to exhibit left/right symmetry. Which leads to the following
questions: What is the source of the port/starboard distinction?
How recent is it? What is its geographical distribution?</p>
<p>If indeed the port/starboard distinction is relatively recent,
then this would tie in nicely with Juergen's speculation earlier
to the effect that "the distribution of framing preferences over
cultures is not stable, but is moving away from a prevalence of
geocentric systems toward one of egocentrism" (where
vehicle-centrism is an extension of egocentrism).</p>
<p>David<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05/03/2021 23:56, Jocelyn Aznar
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:e81cc0a0-6a8d-8476-da4a-b4736c9dfde9@jocelynaznar.eu">Dear
all,
<br>
<br>
I wonder in which category navigational terms like the French
"tribord" or "babord" are (I'm not sure at all about their
translations in English, my dictionary offers "port" and
"starboard"). These terms take the boat as the reference center,
they are still relative/deictic but they definitely can't be
categorized as egocentric as their purpose is to avoid the
ambiguities associated with the egocentric frame.
<br>
I imagine the spatial reference frame used in a given situation
can be depended on the task involved, so there could be other
objectcentric spatial reference frames.
<br>
<br>
All the best,
<br>
Jocelyn
<br>
<br>
Le 05/03/2021 à 21:59, Bohnemeyer, Juergen a écrit :
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Ah, forgot to add references:
<br>
<br>
Hill,C. (1982). Up/down,front/back, left/right: A contrastive
study of Hausa and English. In J. Weissenborn and W. Klein
(eds.), Here and there: Cross-linguistic studies on deixis and
demonstration. Amsterdam: Benjamins. 11-42.
<br>
Nikitina, T. (2018). Frames of reference in discourse: Spatial
descriptions in Bashkir (Turkic). Cognitive Linguistics 29(3):
495-544.
<br>
Polian, G. & J. Bohnemeyer. (2011). Uniformity and variation
in Tseltal reference frame use. Languages Sciences 33(6):
868-891.
<br>
Wassmann, J. & P. R. Dasen. (1998). Balinese spatial
orientation: Some empirical evidence for moderate linguistic
relativity. The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute
4(1): 689–711.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Mar 5, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Bohnemeyer,
Juergen <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><jb77@buffalo.edu></a> wrote:
<br>
<br>
Dear all — Wow, many thanks to everyone who has weighed in! I
should of course have remembered to single out contexts
involving any form of motion as another class of systematic
exceptions, whether it’s in route descriptions (including
descriptions of static layouts from a ‘virtual tour’
perspective) or with respect to rivers.
<br>
<br>
One interesting feature that seems to separate geocentric
systems from egocentric ones is the emergence of local and
regional conventions. For instance, the usage David Gil
reports from Sumatra seems to involve a clash between regional
conventions and the actual local course of a river. This
reminds me of similar reports in Wassmann & Dasen (1998)
for Bali and Polian & Bohnemeyer (2011) for Tseltal Mayan
communities. It’s not immediately obvious that egocentric
usage is subject to local and regional conventions to the same
extent, probably for fairly obvious reasons. The celebrated
case of the so-called Hausa relative system (Hill 1982), where
the observer’s axes are transposed onto the reference entity
rather than to be reflected by it, is sometimes cited as an
exception to this. But Hill in fact describes the transposed
and reflexive relatives as alternative assignment strategies
both of which are available in the speech community, which in
my experience is the case in many populations.
<br>
<br>
Returning to my generalization, the case of Russian is indeed
intriguing. It reminds me of Nikitina’s (2018) controlled
elicitation study with Bashkir speakers, which indeed did not
yield any geocentric uses of any kind, not even uses based on
ad-hoc landmarks. I had never seen anything like it. I now
wonder whether all of Europe is moving in that direction.
<br>
<br>
This dovetails with another important complex of questions
about the worldwide distribution of referential practices.
Today, to my knowledge, all communities in which dominant
relative frame use has been documented either have
post-industrial societies or societies that have shifted to,
or are in the process of shifting to, majority languages of
post-industrial societies. Put differently, there is not a
single attested example I’m aware of in which an indigenous
minority group uses predominantly relative frames without
evidence of sustained bilingualism in or shift to a language
of a surrounding relative-dominant culture. (Perhaps the most
promising place to look for counterexamples are minority
languages of China.)
<br>
<br>
This strongly suggests that the distribution of framing
preferences over cultures is not stable, but is moving away
from a prevalence of geocentric systems toward one of
egocentrism.
<br>
<br>
Which in turn raises intriguing questions about the cultural
history and prehistory of referential practices.
<br>
<br>
Lastly, Christian Lehmann made me aware of this page of his:
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/lg_system/sem/index.html?https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/lg_system/sem/raumorientierung_2.html">https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/lg_system/sem/index.html?https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/lg_system/sem/raumorientierung_2.html</a>
<br>
<br>
It contains the following useful generalizations, which
largely preempt mine:
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">• Wenn ein Volk den absoluten
Bezugsrahmen zur mikrotopischen Orientierung benutzt,
benutzt es ihn auch zur makrotopischen Orientierung.
<br>
• Wenn ein Volk den deiktischen Bezugsrahmen zur
makrotopischen Orientierung benutzt, benutzt es ihn auch zur
mikrotopischen Orientierung.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
One might translate this as follows:
<br>
<br>
• If a group uses geocentric (‘absolute’) frames for
small-scale orientation, it also uses them for large-scale
orientation.
<br>
• If a group uses relative (‘deictic’) frames for
large-scale orientation, it also uses them for small-scale
orientation.
<br>
<br>
Thanks again, everybody! — Juergen
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Mar 5, 2021, at 8:55 AM, Peter
Arkadiev <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru"><peterarkadiev@yandex.ru></a> wrote:
<br>
<br>
There is Rouen-Rive-Droite :-)
<br>
Peter
<br>
05.03.2021, 13:42, "Maia Ponsonnet"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:maia.ponsonnet@uwa.edu.au"><maia.ponsonnet@uwa.edu.au></a>:
<br>
of course there is Paris-Rive-Gauche.
<br>
but on the other hand I'd say it's partly lexicalized.
<br>
people much more rarely talk about "rive droite", and I
don't think the terminology applies in, says, Lyon with the
Rhône for instance?
<br>
Maïa
<br>
Dr Maïa Ponsonnet
<br>
Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics
<br>
Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences
<br>
Building M257, Room 2.36
<br>
Faculty of Arts, Business, Law and Education
<br>
The University of Western Australia
<br>
35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia
<br>
P. +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M. +61 (0) 468 571 030
<br>
From: Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf
of Tilman Berger <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tberger@uni-tuebingen.de"><tberger@uni-tuebingen.de></a>
<br>
Sent: Friday, 5 March 2021 6:20 PM
<br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Testing a generalization about
spatial reference frames
<br>
Dear all,
<br>
I would like to support this point, that "left" and "right"
can be lexicalized toponyms. There is the distinction of
"Left-bank Ukraine" (Лівобережна Україна) and "Right-bank
Ukraine" (Правобережна Україна), where "left" means the
western bank and "right" the eastern. These terms have been
in use since the 17th century.
<br>
Best wishes
<br>
Tilman
<br>
Am 05.03.21 um 11:05 schrieb David Gil:
<br>
Dear all,
<br>
Relative terms making reference to "left" or "right" may
also be lexicalized to form toponyms. For example, the
country name Yemen is actually a lexicalization of the
Arabic word for "right", drawing upon an canonical
orientation facing the rising sun to the east.
<br>
David
<br>
On 05/03/2021 10:36, Dmitry Nikolaev wrote:
<br>
Dear Juergen,
<br>
I don't know what level of conventionalisation you are
looking for, but speakers of Russian, at least those who
grew up in large cities, tend in general to avoid using
geocentric terms and feel uncomfortable using them, and if
it is at all possible to say "The lake is to the right of
the hill", I would personally do so. A quick googling showed
that this phraseology is quite frequent in route
descriptions, and this YouTube video literally advertises a
plot of land "to the left of lake Veselovka".
<br>
My best,
<br>
Dmitry
<br>
On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 07:26, Bohnemeyer, Juergen
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><jb77@buffalo.edu></a> wrote:
<br>
Dear all — I’d like to solicit your help with a
generalization. I’m wondering whether anybody is aware of a
counterexample:
<br>
<br>
It is well known that there are communities whose members
regularly use geocentric terms in reference to the speaker’s
own body, as in
<br>
<br>
(1) ‘My western/downhill arm hurts’.
<br>
<br>
E.g., Laughren (1978) mentions this phenomenon in reference
to Warlpiri. Levinson (2003: 4) notes that the practice
exists among speakers of Guugu Yimithirr (Pama-Nyungan,
Queensland). Haun & Rapold (2011) present an
experimental study of the practice with speakers of ≠Akhoe
Hai||om (Khoekhoe, Namibia).
<br>
<br>
Now, I’m interested in what you might consider something of
an inverse of this kind of use: the use of relative frames
at the geographic scale, as in
<br>
<br>
(2) ‘The lake is to the right of the hill’
<br>
<br>
My generalization is that there doesn’t seem to be any
community in which the type of use exemplified by (2) is
conventional.
<br>
<br>
That is to say, of course we can easily imagine situations
in which English speakers might exchange something like (2):
<br>
<br>
* A speaker looking at the lake and hill might use (2) to
describe what she sees to an interlocutor who doesn’t have
visual access to the scene. The speaker might use relative
language in this case in order to produce a vivid image of
the scene as it presents itself to her.
<br>
<br>
* A speaker looking at representations of the hill and lake
on a map might use (2) metonymically.
<br>
<br>
However, I’m unaware of a community in which something like
(2) would be a conventional way of locating landscape
entities with respect to one another in the absence of
visual access to (representations of) them.
<br>
<br>
(One could argue that (2) is pragmatically semi-infelicitous
in such a context since the truth of (2) depends on the
location of the observer, which is usually more variable
than that of the hill and lake. However, even though the
truth of (1) similarly changes with the speaker’s
orientation, it is presumed to be an entrenched strategy for
this context in several cultures. My interest is partly in
this asymmetry.)
<br>
<br>
I’m curious whether people are aware of counterexamples.
<br>
<br>
Thanks! — Juergen
<br>
<br>
Haun, D. M. B. & C. J. Rapold. (2011). Variation in
memory for body movements across cultures. Current Biology
19(23): R1068-1069.
<br>
<br>
Laughren,M. (1978). Directional terminology in Warlpiri. in
Th. Le and M. McCausland (eds.), Working papers in language
and linguistics, 8: 1–16. Launceston: Tasmanian College of
Advanced Education.
<br>
<br>
Levinson, S. C. (2003). Space in language and cognition.
Cambridge: CUP.
<br>
<br>
--
<br>
Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics
<br>
University at Buffalo
<br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
<br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127
<br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825
<br>
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>
<br>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a>
<br>
<br>
Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to schedule a
call at any time. I will in addition hold Tu/Th 4-5pm open
specifically for remote office hours.
<br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
<br>
(Leonard Cohen)
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Lingtyp mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Lingtyp mailing list
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
<br>
-- <br>
David Gil
<br>
Senior Scientist (Associate)
<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
<br>
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
<br>
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
<br>
Email:
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
<br>
<br>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
<br>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Lingtyp mailing list
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
<br>
-- <br>
Tilman Berger
<br>
Slavisches Seminar
<br>
Universitaet Tuebingen
<br>
Wilhelmstr. 50
<br>
D-72074 Tuebingen
<br>
<br>
E-Mail:
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tberger@uni-tuebingen.de">tberger@uni-tuebingen.de</a>
<br>
<br>
Homepage:
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://uni-tuebingen.de/de/135724">https://uni-tuebingen.de/de/135724</a>
<br>
,
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Lingtyp mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Peter Arkadiev, PhD Habil.
<br>
Institute of Slavic Studies
<br>
Russian Academy of Sciences
<br>
Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119334 Moscow
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</a>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Lingtyp mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics
<br>
University at Buffalo
<br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
<br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127
<br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825
<br>
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>
<br>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a>
<br>
<br>
Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to schedule a call
at any time. I will in addition hold Tu/Th 4-5pm open
specifically for remote office hours.
<br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
<br>
(Leonard Cohen)
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Lingtyp mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Lingtyp mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
</body>
</html>