<div dir="ltr"><p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Dear Martin,</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">It perhaps depends
on what you mean by “verb-coded”. For example, in what sense is the English
passive construction verb-coded? In a Mandarin sentence like (1), the meaning
is passive and crucially it is coded with the passive morpheme <i>bèi</i>,
which historically could be used as a verb that means “to suffer”. The single
argument in (1) can also correspond to the Patient argument of an active
sentence like (2) or (3). Moreover, it can be said that the Agent argument gets suppressed in (1). Therefore,
it appears reasonable to analyze (1) as a passive construction both Chinese-internally
and crosslinguistically. As for whether a </span>
<i>bèi</i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">-construction like (4) can
be analyzed as a passive construction that fits the definition, such an analysis
is possible if one accepts the (controversial and debatable) assumption that <i>bèi</i>
in (4) assumes not only its primary role of being a passive marker but also an
additional role of being a preposition. </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></p><img src="cid:ii_kmjfky6r0" alt="image.png" width="412" height="253"><p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><br></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Chao</span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 10:07 AM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
According to my favourite definition of "passive construction",
these Mandarin examples are (apparently) not passive constructions:<br>
<br>
<font size="-1">"A passive voice construction is a verb-coded
valency construction (i) whose sister valency construction is
transitive and not verb-coded, and (ii) which has an S-argument
corresponding to the transitive P, and (iii) which has a
suppressed or oblique-flagged argument corresponding to the
transitive A".</font><br>
<br>
According to this definition, a passive construction "marks both the
agent and the verb" (unless the agent is suppressed or otherwise
absent). But Ian Joo's question was probably about languages where
the SAME marker can occur on the verb and on the oblique agent. This
would be very unusual, because passive voice markers are not
expected to be similar to an oblique agent flag.<br>
<br>
Now my question is: Are these Mandarin (and Shanghainese)
BEI/GEI-constructions passives? They have traditionally been called
passives, but since the BEI element is obligatory, while the agent
can be omitted (<i>Zhangsan bei (Lisi) da le</i> 'Zhangsan was hit
(by Lisi)'), it cannot be a preposition or case prefix. At least
that would seem to follow from the definition of "affix/adposition".
So I think this construction doesn't fall under a rigorous
definition of "passive construction". (Rather, it is a sui generis
construction.)<br>
<br>
Some authors might say that it is a "noncanonical passive" (cf.
Legate, Julie Anne. 2021. Noncanonical passives: A typology of
voices in an impoverished Universal Grammar. <i>Annual Review of
Linguistics</i> 7(1). doi:<a href="https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459" target="_blank">10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459</a>),
but there does not seem to be a clear limit to this vague notion (is
every topicalization construction a noncanonical passive?). I do not
know of a fully explicit definition of "passive construction" that
clearly includes the Mandarin BEI constructions.<br>
<span title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1146%2Fannurev-linguistics-031920-114459&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Noncanonical%20passives%3A%20A%20typology%20of%20voices%20in%20an%20impoverished%20Universal%20Grammar&rft.jtitle=Annual%20Review%20of%20Linguistics&rft.volume=7&rft.issue=1&rft.aufirst=Julie%20Anne&rft.aulast=Legate&rft.au=Julie%20Anne%20Legate&rft.date=2021"></span><br>
Best wishes,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 28.02.21 um 19:46 schrieb bingfu Lu:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-size:16px;font-family:"courier new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">A better example
in Mandarin may be:</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:"courier new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Zhangsan bei-Lisi gei-da-le.</span><br style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Zhangsan PASS-Lisi
PASS-hit-PRF</span><br style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">`Zhangsan was hit by
Lisi.'</span></div>
<div style="font-family:"courier new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">'bei' is
etymologically related to 'suffer' while‘给’ to 'give'.</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">In fact, </div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><span><span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Zhangsan
bei-(Lisi) da-le.</span></span><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">can also change to</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Zhangsan gei-(Lisi）
da-le.</span></span><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br>
</span></span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">Furthermore, in Shanghainese, the PASS is
a morpheme homophonic to the morpheme for 'give'.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr">regards,<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Bingfu Lu</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Beijing
Language University</div>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:"courier new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyahoo_quoted_4775567649">
<div style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)">
<div> On Sunday, February 28, 2021, 10:26:36 PM GMT+8, JOO,
Ian [Student] <a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk" target="_blank"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a> wrote: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id="gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyiv9747170334">
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
I wonder if you are aware of any language whose
passive construction marks both the agent and the
verb.<br>
For example, in Mandarin, the agent receives the
passive marker <em>bei.</em><br>
<br>
(1) Zhangsan bei-Lisi da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
<br>
When the agent is omitted, the verb receives <em>bei</em>.<br>
<br>
(2) Zhangsan bei-da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit.'<br>
<br>
But, in some occasions, both the agent and the verb
receive <em>bei</em>:<br>
<br>
(3) Zhangsan bei-Lisi bei-da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
<br>
Are you aware of any other language where a
construction like (3) is possible?<br>
The only one I am aware of at the moment is
Vietnamese.<br>
I would greatly appreciate any help.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
Regards,
<div>Ian</div>
</div>
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<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a href="https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522" target="_blank">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a></pre>
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