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<p>Chao, Martin,<br>
<br>
I agree with Chao's characterization of Mandarin (1) as being a
passive under most or all reasonable definitions thereof; however,
I fail to see why (4) cannot also be considered to be a passive.
In (4), <i>bèi</i> is not flagging <i>jĭngchá</i> 'police' but
rather is marking the entire phrase <i>jĭngchá tuō-zŏu-le</i>
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{page:WordSection1;}</style> — it may thus be analyzed as an instance
of "verb(-phrase) coding". <br>
<br>
Many Southeast Asian languages have paradigms which correspond to
that in (1) - (4) except that, in the counterpart of (4), the
agent phrase follows rather than precedes the verb. Such
constructions are commonly referred to as "passives", or, more
specifically, as "periphrastic" or sometimes "adversative
passives". Moreover, in such languages, the counterpart of
Mandarin <i>bèi</i> is presumably also applying to the
verb-plus-agent phrase as a whole. So the only obvious difference
between such constructions and Mandarin (4) is that of word
order. (I say "*obvious* difference" because it may be the case
that syntactic tests will show that <i>jĭngchá</i> in (4) has
more subject properties than do the usual Southeast Asian
postverbal agent phrases, in which case the prototypicality of (4)
as a passive would decrease accordingly. But has anybody shown
this to be the case?)</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/03/2021 19:31, Chao Li wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAL3Jw8RW9h=M9CH5d7OHZNHF3OFeXCUtQGm7LJoPgR8MnQhxgA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Dear Martin,</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">It perhaps depends
on what you mean by “verb-coded”. For example, in what sense
is the English
passive construction verb-coded? In a Mandarin sentence like
(1), the meaning
is passive and crucially it is coded with the passive
morpheme <i>bèi</i>,
which historically could be used as a verb that means “to
suffer”. The single
argument in (1) can also correspond to the Patient argument
of an active
sentence like (2) or (3). Moreover, it can be said that the
Agent argument gets suppressed in (1). Therefore,
it appears reasonable to analyze (1) as a passive
construction both Chinese-internally
and crosslinguistically. As for whether a </span>
<i>bèi</i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif">-construction like (4) can
be analyzed as a passive construction that fits the
definition, such an analysis
is possible if one accepts the (controversial and debatable)
assumption that <i>bèi</i>
in (4) assumes not only its primary role of being a passive
marker but also an
additional role of being a preposition. </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<img src="cid:part1.DFF6054E.DF568A90@shh.mpg.de"
alt="image.png" class="" width="412" height="253">
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><br>
</p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Chao</span></p>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 10:07
AM Martin Haspelmath <<a
href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de"
moz-do-not-send="true">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> According to my favourite definition of "passive
construction", these Mandarin examples are (apparently) not
passive constructions:<br>
<br>
<font size="-1">"A passive voice construction is a
verb-coded valency construction (i) whose sister valency
construction is transitive and not verb-coded, and (ii)
which has an S-argument corresponding to the transitive P,
and (iii) which has a suppressed or oblique-flagged
argument corresponding to the transitive A".</font><br>
<br>
According to this definition, a passive construction "marks
both the agent and the verb" (unless the agent is suppressed
or otherwise absent). But Ian Joo's question was probably
about languages where the SAME marker can occur on the verb
and on the oblique agent. This would be very unusual,
because passive voice markers are not expected to be similar
to an oblique agent flag.<br>
<br>
Now my question is: Are these Mandarin (and Shanghainese)
BEI/GEI-constructions passives? They have traditionally been
called passives, but since the BEI element is obligatory,
while the agent can be omitted (<i>Zhangsan bei (Lisi) da le</i>
'Zhangsan was hit (by Lisi)'), it cannot be a preposition or
case prefix. At least that would seem to follow from the
definition of "affix/adposition". So I think this
construction doesn't fall under a rigorous definition of
"passive construction". (Rather, it is a sui generis
construction.)<br>
<br>
Some authors might say that it is a "noncanonical passive"
(cf. Legate, Julie Anne. 2021. Noncanonical passives: A
typology of voices in an impoverished Universal Grammar. <i>Annual
Review of Linguistics</i> 7(1). doi:<a
href="https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459</a>),
but there does not seem to be a clear limit to this vague
notion (is every topicalization construction a noncanonical
passive?). I do not know of a fully explicit definition of
"passive construction" that clearly includes the Mandarin
BEI constructions.<br>
<span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1146%2Fannurev-linguistics-031920-114459&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Noncanonical%20passives%3A%20A%20typology%20of%20voices%20in%20an%20impoverished%20Universal%20Grammar&rft.jtitle=Annual%20Review%20of%20Linguistics&rft.volume=7&rft.issue=1&rft.aufirst=Julie%20Anne&rft.aulast=Legate&rft.au=Julie%20Anne%20Legate&rft.date=2021"></span><br>
Best wishes,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 28.02.21 um 19:46 schrieb bingfu Lu:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-size:16px;font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">A
better example in Mandarin may be:</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Zhangsan
bei-Lisi gei-da-le.</span><br
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Zhangsan
PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF</span><br
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">`Zhangsan
was hit by Lisi.'</span></div>
<div style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">'bei'
is etymologically related to 'suffer' while‘给’ to
'give'.</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">In
fact, </div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><span><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Zhangsan
bei-(Lisi) da-le.</span></span><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">can also change
to</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Zhangsan
gei-(Lisi） da-le.</span></span><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br>
</span></span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">Furthermore, in
Shanghainese, the PASS is a morpheme homophonic to
the morpheme for 'give'.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr">regards,<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Bingfu
Lu</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Beijing
Language University</div>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyahoo_quoted_4775567649">
<div style="font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)">
<div> On Sunday, February 28, 2021, 10:26:36 PM GMT+8,
JOO, Ian [Student] <a
href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a>
wrote: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyiv9747170334">
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
I wonder if you are aware of any language
whose passive construction marks both the
agent and the verb.<br>
For example, in Mandarin, the agent receives
the passive marker <em>bei.</em><br>
<br>
(1) Zhangsan bei-Lisi da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
<br>
When the agent is omitted, the verb
receives <em>bei</em>.<br>
<br>
(2) Zhangsan bei-da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit.'<br>
<br>
But, in some occasions, both the agent and
the verb receive <em>bei</em>:<br>
<br>
(3) Zhangsan bei-Lisi bei-da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
<br>
Are you aware of any other language where a
construction like (3) is possible?<br>
The only one I am aware of at the moment is
Vietnamese.<br>
I would greatly appreciate any help.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
Regards,
<div>Ian</div>
</div>
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