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    Yes, comparative concepts cannot be right or wrong, but traditional
    terms can be defined in a better or less good way. Note that the
    original question by Ian Joo used the traditional term "passive",
    assuming that we know what it means (not necessarily assuming that
    "passive" is a concept that is useful for typological
    generalizations).<br>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Good definitions of traditional terms are (i) clear (i.e. based
      on clear concepts) and (ii) largely coextensive with legacy
      usage. </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Traditional terms can rarely be defined clearly in such a way
      that the definition covers ALL legacy cases. So while the Chinese
      <i>bèi </i>
      construction is similar to the Swahili Passive, I don’t see that
      we can have a definition of <i>passive</i> that covers both.
      Maybe even the English Passive is not included. </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>By contrast, I don’t see why Papuan Malay <i>dapa-pukul</i>
      shouldn’t be included. Isn’t <i>dapa-</i> a passive prefix? (And
      similarly Riau Indonesian <i>kena-pukul</i>.)<br>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Best,</div>
    Martin<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 22.03.21 um 12:25 schrieb David Gil:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:b630d0bc-655e-766b-4732-ee87f7d2f499@shh.mpg.de">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <p>Martin,</p>
      <p>As you've pointed out on numerous occasions, comparative
        concepts can't be right or wrong, they can only be more or less
        useful as tools for typological generalizations.  Still, with
        that in mind, I suspect that a comparative concept of "passive"
        that subsumes, say, the rather garden-variety constructions in
        (1) and (2), rather than excluding them on the grounds that the
        verb lacks an affix, as you would have things, will turn out to
        be more useful for typologists (not to mention conforming more
        closely with common every-day usage).</p>
      <p>(1) Riau Indonesian<br>
            <i>Yusuf kena pukul sama Musa</i><br>
            Yusuf PASS hit together Musa<br>
            'Yusuf got hit by Musa'<br>
            [cf. "active" <i>Musa pukul Yusuf</i>]</p>
      <p>(1) Papuan Malay<br>
            <i>Yusuf dapa pukul dari Musa</i><br>
            Yusuf PASS hit from Musa<br>
            'Yusuf got hit by Musa'<br>
            [cf. "active" <i>Musa pukul Yusuf</i>]</p>
      <p>David</p>
      <p><br>
      </p>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 22/03/2021 08:24, Martin
        Haspelmath wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:577dc3c4-09c0-7371-9cb6-bab16c4b734c@eva.mpg.de">
        <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
          charset=UTF-8">
        Yes, the definition that I use presupposes an understanding of
        "verb-coded" and "adposition", but this is typical of
        definitions: They work only if their component parts are defined
        or understood clearly. <br>
        <br>
        So is <i>bèi</i> a verb-coding element in (1) and (4)? It could
        be said to be "verb-phrase coding" (as David notes), but the
        notion of "verb phrase" is not cross-linguistically applicable
        in an obvious way. So I would restrict "passive" (as a
        comparative concept) to forms where the verb has an affix
        (because this is the only situation in which the two sister
        constructions are clearly asymmetric). Now is <i>bèi</i> a
        prefix in (1)? This would be possible only if <i>bèi</i> in (1)
        and <i>bèi</i> in (4) are two different elements – and it seems
        that we do not want to say this.<br>
        <br>
        Chao rightly asks: "In what sense is the English passive
        construction verb-coded?" The English Passive includes an
        Auxiliary, but there is no good cross-linguistic definition of
        "auxiliary", so we don't want to say that auxiliaries can be
        criterial for passives. Some English verbs have what looks like
        a passive affix (e.g. <i>-en</i> in <i>tak-en</i>), but the
        English Passive construction does not clearly fall under the
        definition that I gave. (A good illustration of "passive" is
        Siewierska's first example in her WALS chapter, from Swahili: <i>chakula
          kilipik-<b>wa</b> (na Hamisi)</i> 'The food was cooked by
        Hamisi').<br>
        <br>
        There is a tradition of appealing to "tests for subject
        properties" (going back to Keenan 1976), but this seems
        appropriate only at the language-particular level. Since these
        tests are different in different languages, this approach does
        not work well in a comparative context.<br>
        <br>
        Best,<br>
        Martin<br>
        <br>
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.03.21 um 20:28 schrieb David
          Gil:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote type="cite"
          cite="mid:8b99d376-6266-a5d8-2bdc-119833daaa34@shh.mpg.de">
          <p>Chao, Martin,<br>
            <br>
            I agree with Chao's characterization of Mandarin (1) as
            being a passive under most or all reasonable definitions
            thereof; however, I fail to see why (4) cannot also be
            considered to be a passive.  In (4), <i>bèi</i> is not
            flagging <i>jĭngchá</i> 'police' but rather is marking the
            entire phrase <i>jĭngchá tuō-zŏu-le</i>
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        {page:WordSection1;}</style> — it may thus be analyzed as an instance
            of "verb(-phrase) coding".  <br>
            <br>
            Many Southeast Asian languages have paradigms which
            correspond to that in (1) - (4) except that, in the
            counterpart of (4), the agent phrase follows rather than
            precedes the verb.  Such constructions are commonly referred
            to as "passives", or, more specifically, as "periphrastic"
            or sometimes "adversative passives".  Moreover, in such
            languages, the counterpart of Mandarin <i>bèi</i> is
            presumably also applying to the verb-plus-agent phrase as a
            whole.  So the only obvious difference between such
            constructions and Mandarin (4) is that of word order.  (I
            say "*obvious* difference" because it may be the case that
            syntactic tests will show that <i>jĭngchá</i> in (4) has
            more subject properties than do the usual Southeast Asian
            postverbal agent phrases, in which case the prototypicality
            of (4) as a passive would decrease accordingly.  But has
            anybody shown this to be the case?)</p>
          <p>David</p>
          <p><br>
          </p>
          <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/03/2021 19:31, Chao Li
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAL3Jw8RW9h=M9CH5d7OHZNHF3OFeXCUtQGm7LJoPgR8MnQhxgA@mail.gmail.com">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
                  style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
                  Roman",serif">Dear Martin,</span></p>
              <p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
                  style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
                  Roman",serif"> </span></p>
              <p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
                  style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
                  Roman",serif">It perhaps depends on what you mean
                  by “verb-coded”. For example, in what sense is the
                  English passive construction verb-coded? In a Mandarin
                  sentence like (1), the meaning is passive and
                  crucially it is coded with the passive morpheme <i>bèi</i>,
                  which historically could be used as a verb that means
                  “to suffer”. The single argument in (1) can also
                  correspond to the Patient argument of an active
                  sentence like (2) or (3). Moreover, it can be said
                  that the Agent argument gets suppressed in (1).
                  Therefore, it appears reasonable to analyze (1) as a
                  passive construction both Chinese-internally and
                  crosslinguistically. As for whether a </span> <i>bèi</i><span
                  style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
                  Roman",serif">-construction like (4) can be
                  analyzed as a passive construction that fits the
                  definition, such an analysis is possible if one
                  accepts the (controversial and debatable) assumption
                  that <i>bèi</i> in (4) assumes not only its primary
                  role of being a passive marker but also an additional
                  role of being a preposition. </span></p>
              <p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
                  style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
                  Roman",serif"> </span></p>
              <img src="cid:part1.24B6DA10.675C2354@eva.mpg.de"
                alt="image.png" class="" width="412" height="253">
              <p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
                  style="font-family:"Times New
                  Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span
                  style="font-family:"Times New
                  Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">  </span><br>
              </p>
              <p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
                  style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
                  Roman",serif">Best regards,</span></p>
              <p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
                  style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
                  Roman",serif">Chao</span></p>
            </div>
            <br>
            <div class="gmail_quote">
              <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at
                10:07 AM Martin Haspelmath <<a
                  href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>
                wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                <div> According to my favourite definition of "passive
                  construction", these Mandarin examples are
                  (apparently) not passive constructions:<br>
                  <br>
                  <font size="-1">"A passive voice construction is a
                    verb-coded valency construction (i) whose sister
                    valency construction is transitive and not
                    verb-coded, and (ii) which has an S-argument
                    corresponding to the transitive P, and (iii) which
                    has a suppressed or oblique-flagged argument
                    corresponding to the transitive A".</font><br>
                  <br>
                  According to this definition, a passive construction
                  "marks both the agent and the verb" (unless the agent
                  is suppressed or otherwise absent). But Ian Joo's
                  question was probably about languages where the SAME
                  marker can occur on the verb and on the oblique agent.
                  This would be very unusual, because passive voice
                  markers are not expected to be similar to an oblique
                  agent flag.<br>
                  <br>
                  Now my question is: Are these Mandarin (and
                  Shanghainese) BEI/GEI-constructions passives? They
                  have traditionally been called passives, but since the
                  BEI element is obligatory, while the agent can be
                  omitted (<i>Zhangsan bei (Lisi) da le</i> 'Zhangsan
                  was hit (by Lisi)'), it cannot be a preposition or
                  case prefix. At least that would seem to follow from
                  the definition of "affix/adposition". So I think this
                  construction doesn't fall under a rigorous definition
                  of "passive construction". (Rather, it is a sui
                  generis construction.)<br>
                  <br>
                  Some authors might say that it is a "noncanonical
                  passive" (cf. Legate, Julie Anne. 2021. Noncanonical
                  passives: A typology of voices in an impoverished
                  Universal Grammar. <i>Annual Review of Linguistics</i>
                  7(1). doi:<a
                    href="https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459"
                    target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459</a>),
                  but there does not seem to be a clear limit to this
                  vague notion (is every topicalization construction a
                  noncanonical passive?). I do not know of a fully
                  explicit definition of "passive construction" that
                  clearly includes the Mandarin BEI constructions.<br>
                  <span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1146%2Fannurev-linguistics-031920-114459&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Noncanonical%20passives%3A%20A%20typology%20of%20voices%20in%20an%20impoverished%20Universal%20Grammar&rft.jtitle=Annual%20Review%20of%20Linguistics&rft.volume=7&rft.issue=1&rft.aufirst=Julie%20Anne&rft.aulast=Legate&rft.au=Julie%20Anne%20Legate&rft.date=2021"></span><br>
                  Best wishes,<br>
                  Martin<br>
                  <br>
                  <div>Am 28.02.21 um 19:46 schrieb bingfu Lu:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div style="font-size:16px;font-family:"courier
                      new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">
                      <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
                        new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">A
                        better example in Mandarin may be:</div>
                      <div dir="ltr">
                        <div style="font-family:"courier
                          new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
                            Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Zhangsan
                            bei-Lisi      gei-da-le.</span><br
                            style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
                            Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">
                          <span
                            style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
                            Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Zhangsan
                            PASS-Lisi  PASS-hit-PRF</span><br
                            style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
                            Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">
                          <span
                            style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
                            Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">`Zhangsan
                            was hit by Lisi.'</span></div>
                        <div style="font-family:"courier
                          new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
                        </div>
                        <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
                          new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">'bei'
                          is etymologically related to 'suffer' while‘给’
                          to 'give'.</div>
                        <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
                          new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
                        </div>
                        <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
                          new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">In
                          fact, </div>
                        <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
                          new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><span><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
                              Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Zhangsan
                              bei-(Lisi)      da-le.</span></span><br>
                        </div>
                        <div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
                            Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"
                            color="#26282a">can also change to</font></div>
                        <div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
                            Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"
                            color="#26282a"><span><span
                                style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Zhangsan
                                gei-(Lisi)      da-le.</span></span><br>
                          </font></div>
                        <div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
                            Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"
                            color="#26282a"><span><span
                                style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br>
                              </span></span></font></div>
                        <div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
                            Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"
                            color="#26282a">Furthermore, in
                            Shanghainese, the PASS is a morpheme
                            homophonic to the morpheme for 'give'.</font></div>
                        <div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
                            Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"
                            color="#26282a"><br>
                          </font></div>
                        <div dir="ltr">regards,<br>
                        </div>
                        <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
                          new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Bingfu
                          Lu</div>
                        <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
                          new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Beijing
                          Language University</div>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                      <div style="font-family:"courier
                        new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div
                      id="gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyahoo_quoted_4775567649">
                      <div style="font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)">
                        <div> On Sunday, February 28, 2021, 10:26:36 PM
                          GMT+8, JOO, Ian [Student] <a
                            href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a>
                          wrote: </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div
                            id="gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyiv9747170334">
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>Dear typologists,<br>
                                  <br>
                                  I wonder if you are aware of any
                                  language whose passive construction
                                  marks both the agent and the verb.<br>
                                  For example, in Mandarin, the agent
                                  receives the passive marker <em>bei.</em><br>
                                  <br>
                                  (1) Zhangsan bei-Lisi da-le.<br>
                                  Zhangsan PASS-Lisi hit-PRF<br>
                                  `Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
                                  <br>
                                  When the agent is omitted, the verb
                                  receives <em>bei</em>.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  (2) Zhangsan bei-da-le.<br>
                                  Zhangsan PASS-hit-PRF<br>
                                  `Zhangsan was hit.'<br>
                                  <br>
                                  But, in some occasions, both the agent
                                  and the verb receive <em>bei</em>:<br>
                                  <br>
                                  (3) Zhangsan bei-Lisi bei-da-le.<br>
                                  Zhangsan PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF<br>
                                  `Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Are you aware of any other language
                                  where a construction like (3) is
                                  possible?<br>
                                  The only one I am aware of at the
                                  moment is Vietnamese.<br>
                                  I would greatly appreciate any help.</div>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                                Regards,
                                <div>Ian</div>
                              </div>
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</pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <br>
                  <pre cols="72">-- 
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a href="https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a></pre>
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            <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
David Gil
 
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
 
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
          <br>
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</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a></pre>
        <br>
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</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
David Gil
 
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
 
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
      <br>
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      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a></pre>
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