<html><head></head><body><div class="ydpe3faf2adyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family: lucida console, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><div></div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Dear Christian:</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> Thank you for your further consideration.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> Yes, your analysis is plausible to an extent. I prefer to analyze 'King kill' as a modifier-head phrase because there are couple of reasons that support the modifier-head account?</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> 1) In classic Chinese, the attributive marker is optional. Thus, 'King kill' can be analyzed as 'King's kill(ing)'. On the other hand, we do find some examples with similar structure and meaning but the modifier marker is present. For example:</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> <span><p class="ydpf3e1e79dMsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm; text-align: justify; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: DengXian; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="font-family: 宋体;">被斯言之玷 《风俗通义》（Fengsu Tongyi. A book published in later Han Dynasty, when bei4 is right under reanalysis)</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p></span> bei4 si1 yan2 zhi1 dian1</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">suffer this speech modifier_marker dirt/to dirty</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">suffered dirt of this remark / suffered dirtying of this remark=was dirtied by this remark.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">2) In classic Chinese, if a transitive verb serves as the predicate alone without object, it tends to be interpreted as a (unmarked) passive verb. It means that 'King kill' tends to mean 'King is killed' instead of 'King killed somebody'. So I believe that 'King kill' is not a phrase for King kill somebody'. </div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">There are famous sentences exemplifying this reading:</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Long1feng2 zhan3, Bi3gan1 pou1.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Longfeng kill, Bigan cut 'Longfeng is killed and Bigan was cut on the body.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> Danqing</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div><br></div>
</div><div id="ydp5230f7e9yahoo_quoted_6701048685" class="ydp5230f7e9yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>
On Monday, March 22, 2021, 07:37:04 PM GMT+8, Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div id="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798"><div>
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-cite-prefix">Dear Danqing,</div>
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-cite-prefix"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-cite-prefix">allow me an elementary question, being
ignorant about Chinese: Why don't you analyze thus your two
examples:<br clear="none">
</div>
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-cite-prefix">
<div dir="ltr"> (1) Jiang4 bei4 sha1.</div>
<div dir="ltr"> general suffer [kill]
'The general suffered killing = The general was killed'</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr"> (2) Jiang4 bei4 wang2
sha1.</div>
<div dir="ltr"> general suffer [king
kill] '<span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The general
suffered the King's killing = The general was killed by the
King'</span></span></div>
</div>
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-cite-prefix"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-cite-prefix">This bracketing is meant to represent
an analysis by which bei4 is an auxiliary, preceding a phrase
headed by the full verb, in both cases. Although grammaticalized,
as you say, it is then neither a marker on the verb nor a
preposition marking a passive agent, but just a passive auxiliary.</div>
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-cite-prefix"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-cite-prefix">Christian<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
</blockquote></div><div><div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp8aacd807yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Colleagues:</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr"> The function word <i>bei4</i>
is viewed as a particle (for the verb) in some cases and as a
preposition in others in Chinese linguistics. It is a unique
element even as a member of the preposition inventory. That is
due to its unique grammaticalization pathway. Let me say a few
words to explain it.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr"> As Chao Li says, <i>bei4</i>
originally was a verb denoting 'to suffer'. It can take either
a noun (such as pain, insult) or a verb as its object, and the
verbal object underwent no change in its verbal form. When <i>bei4</i>
takes a verbal argument in Classic Chinese, the argument can
be optionally modified by an agent noun, thus, we have two
forms of such 'suffering construction':</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr"> (1) Jiang4 bei4 sha1.</div>
<div dir="ltr"> general suffer kill
'The general suffered killing = The general was killed'</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr"> (2) Jiang4 bei4 wang2
sha1.</div>
<div dir="ltr"> general suffer king
kill '<span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The general
suffered the King's killing = The general was killed by
the King'</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Later, according to some criteria, the
above constructions underwent grammaticalization. '<i>Bei4</i>'
in (1) was reanalyzed as a passive particle (marker) on
the verb, while '<i>bei4</i>' in (2) was reanalyzed as a
preposition, with the possessive agent noun reanalyzed as
an oblique agent. This is a unique pathway among Chinese
prepositions because most prepositions in Chinese came
from verbs occurring in serial verb constructions. </span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> </span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> (1) is the source of the so-called
short passive sentence in Mandarin while (2) is the
source of the so-called long passive sentence.</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"> For the details regarding
the grammaticalization of <i>bei4</i>, see <span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Zhang, <span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Hongming 1994,
The grammaticalization of <i>bei</i> in Chinese, </span></span> in
<i>Chinese Languages and Linguistics 2</i>, ed. by
Jen-Kuei Li, Academia Sinica, Taipei.</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> Danqing</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
</span></span></div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yahoo_quoted" id="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yahoo_quoted_7275995572">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div> On Monday, March 22, 2021, 1:32:25 AM GMT+8, Chao Li
<a shape="rect" class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chao.li@aya.yale.edu" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><chao.li@aya.yale.edu></a> wrote: </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>
<div id="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Dear
Martin,</span></p>
<p class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">It
perhaps depends
on what you mean by “verb-coded”. For example, in
what sense is the English
passive construction verb-coded? In a Mandarin
sentence like (1), the meaning
is passive and crucially it is coded with the
passive morpheme <i>bèi</i>,
which historically could be used as a verb that
means “to suffer”. The single
argument in (1) can also correspond to the Patient
argument of an active
sentence like (2) or (3). Moreover, it can be said
that the Agent argument gets suppressed in (1).
Therefore,
it appears reasonable to analyze (1) as a passive
construction both Chinese-internally
and crosslinguistically. As for whether a </span>
<i>bèi</i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">-construction
like (4) can
be analyzed as a passive construction that fits
the definition, such an analysis
is possible if one accepts the (controversial and
debatable) assumption that <i>bèi</i>
in (4) assumes not only its primary role of being
a passive marker but also an
additional role of being a preposition. </span></p>
<p class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> </span></p>
<img src="" alt="image.png" style="width:412px;max-width:752px;" data-inlineimagemanipulating="true" class="">
<p class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-family:New serif;font-size:12pt;"> </span><span style="font-family:New serif;font-size:12pt;"> </span><br clear="none">
</p>
<p class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Best
regards,</span></p>
<p class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing" style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Chao</span></p>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail_quote">
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119yqt2697720087" id="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119yqt58074">
<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 10:07 AM Martin
Haspelmath <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div> According to my favourite definition of
"passive construction", these Mandarin examples
are (apparently) not passive constructions:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<font size="-1">"A passive voice construction is
a verb-coded valency construction (i) whose
sister valency construction is transitive and
not verb-coded, and (ii) which has an
S-argument corresponding to the transitive P,
and (iii) which has a suppressed or
oblique-flagged argument corresponding to the
transitive A".</font><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
According to this definition, a passive
construction "marks both the agent and the verb"
(unless the agent is suppressed or otherwise
absent). But Ian Joo's question was probably
about languages where the SAME marker can occur
on the verb and on the oblique agent. This would
be very unusual, because passive voice markers
are not expected to be similar to an oblique
agent flag.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Now my question is: Are these Mandarin (and
Shanghainese) BEI/GEI-constructions passives?
They have traditionally been called passives,
but since the BEI element is obligatory, while
the agent can be omitted (<i>Zhangsan bei (Lisi)
da le</i> 'Zhangsan was hit (by Lisi)'), it
cannot be a preposition or case prefix. At least
that would seem to follow from the definition of
"affix/adposition". So I think this construction
doesn't fall under a rigorous definition of
"passive construction". (Rather, it is a sui
generis construction.)<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Some authors might say that it is a
"noncanonical passive" (cf. Legate, Julie Anne.
2021. Noncanonical passives: A typology of
voices in an impoverished Universal Grammar. <i>Annual
Review of Linguistics</i> 7(1). doi:<a shape="rect" href="https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459</a>),
but there does not seem to be a clear limit to
this vague notion (is every topicalization
construction a noncanonical passive?). I do not
know of a fully explicit definition of "passive
construction" that clearly includes the Mandarin
BEI constructions.<br clear="none">
<span title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1146%2Fannurev-linguistics-031920-114459&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Noncanonical%20passives%3A%20A%20typology%20of%20voices%20in%20an%20impoverished%20Universal%20Grammar&rft.jtitle=Annual%20Review%20of%20Linguistics&rft.volume=7&rft.issue=1&rft.aufirst=Julie%20Anne&rft.aulast=Legate&rft.au=Julie%20Anne%20Legate&rft.date=2021"></span><br clear="none">
Best wishes,<br clear="none">
Martin<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div>Am 28.02.21 um 19:46 schrieb bingfu Lu:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-size:16px;font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">A better
example in Mandarin may be:</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;"><span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Zhangsan bei-Lisi
gei-da-le.</span><br clear="none" style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">
<span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Zhangsan
PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF</span><br clear="none" style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">
<span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">`Zhangsan was hit
by Lisi.'</span></div>
<div style="font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">'bei' is
etymologically related to 'suffer'
while‘给’ to 'give'.</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">In
fact, </div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;"><span><span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Zhangsan
bei-(Lisi) da-le.</span></span><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">can also change to</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Zhangsan
gei-(Lisi） da-le.</span></span><br clear="none">
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none">
</span></span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">Furthermore, in
Shanghainese, the PASS is a morpheme
homophonic to the morpheme for 'give'.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><br clear="none">
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr">regards,<br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">Bingfu
Lu</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">Beijing
Language University</div>
<br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;"><br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<div id="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyahoo_quoted_4775567649">
<div style="font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42);">
<div> On Sunday, February 28, 2021,
10:26:36 PM GMT+8, JOO, Ian [Student] <a shape="rect" href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a>
wrote: </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>
<div id="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyiv9747170334">
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear typologists,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I wonder if you are aware of any
language whose passive
construction marks both the
agent and the verb.<br clear="none">
For example, in Mandarin, the
agent receives the passive
marker <em>bei.</em><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
(1) Zhangsan bei-Lisi da-le.<br clear="none">
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi hit-PRF<br clear="none">
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
When the agent is omitted, the
verb receives <em>bei</em>.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
(2) Zhangsan bei-da-le.<br clear="none">
Zhangsan PASS-hit-PRF<br clear="none">
`Zhangsan was hit.'<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
But, in some occasions, both the
agent and the verb receive <em>bei</em>:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
(3) Zhangsan bei-Lisi bei-da-le.<br clear="none">
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF<br clear="none">
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Are you aware of any other
language where a construction
like (3) is possible?<br clear="none">
The only one I am aware of at
the moment is Vietnamese.<br clear="none">
I would greatly appreciate any
help.</div>
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
Regards,
<div>Ian</div>
</div>
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<pre>_______________________________________________
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<pre>--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
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<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yqt2697720087" id="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798ydp84b9ea36yqt61407">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
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<div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-signature">-- <br clear="none">
<p style="font-size:90%;">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br clear="none">
Rudolfstr. 4<br clear="none">
99092 Erfurt<br clear="none">
<span>Deutschland</span></p>
<table style="font-size:80%;"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1">Tel.:</td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1">+49/361/2113417</td></tr><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1">E-Post:</td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1"><a shape="rect" class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1">Web:</td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1"><a shape="rect" class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a></td></tr></tbody></table><div class="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798yqt1691653132" id="ydp5230f7e9yiv4431891798yqtfd05302">
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