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<p>Martin,</p>
<p>As you've pointed out on numerous occasions, comparative concepts
can't be right or wrong, they can only be more or less useful as
tools for typological generalizations. Still, with that in mind,
I suspect that a comparative concept of "passive" that subsumes,
say, the rather garden-variety constructions in (1) and (2),
rather than excluding them on the grounds that the verb lacks an
affix, as you would have things, will turn out to be more useful
for typologists (not to mention conforming more closely with
common every-day usage).</p>
<p>(1) Riau Indonesian<br>
<i>Yusuf kena pukul sama Musa</i><br>
Yusuf PASS hit together Musa<br>
'Yusuf got hit by Musa'<br>
[cf. "active" <i>Musa pukul Yusuf</i>]</p>
<p>(1) Papuan Malay<br>
<i>Yusuf dapa pukul dari Musa</i><br>
Yusuf PASS hit from Musa<br>
'Yusuf got hit by Musa'<br>
[cf. "active" <i>Musa pukul Yusuf</i>]</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 22/03/2021 08:24, Martin Haspelmath
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:577dc3c4-09c0-7371-9cb6-bab16c4b734c@eva.mpg.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Yes, the definition that I use presupposes an understanding of
"verb-coded" and "adposition", but this is typical of definitions:
They work only if their component parts are defined or understood
clearly. <br>
<br>
So is <i>bèi</i> a verb-coding element in (1) and (4)? It could
be said to be "verb-phrase coding" (as David notes), but the
notion of "verb phrase" is not cross-linguistically applicable in
an obvious way. So I would restrict "passive" (as a comparative
concept) to forms where the verb has an affix (because this is the
only situation in which the two sister constructions are clearly
asymmetric). Now is <i>bèi</i> a prefix in (1)? This would be
possible only if <i>bèi</i> in (1) and <i>bèi</i> in (4) are two
different elements – and it seems that we do not want to say this.<br>
<br>
Chao rightly asks: "In what sense is the English passive
construction verb-coded?" The English Passive includes an
Auxiliary, but there is no good cross-linguistic definition of
"auxiliary", so we don't want to say that auxiliaries can be
criterial for passives. Some English verbs have what looks like a
passive affix (e.g. <i>-en</i> in <i>tak-en</i>), but the
English Passive construction does not clearly fall under the
definition that I gave. (A good illustration of "passive" is
Siewierska's first example in her WALS chapter, from Swahili: <i>chakula
kilipik-<b>wa</b> (na Hamisi)</i> 'The food was cooked by
Hamisi').<br>
<br>
There is a tradition of appealing to "tests for subject
properties" (going back to Keenan 1976), but this seems
appropriate only at the language-particular level. Since these
tests are different in different languages, this approach does not
work well in a comparative context.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.03.21 um 20:28 schrieb David
Gil:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8b99d376-6266-a5d8-2bdc-119833daaa34@shh.mpg.de">
<p>Chao, Martin,<br>
<br>
I agree with Chao's characterization of Mandarin (1) as being
a passive under most or all reasonable definitions thereof;
however, I fail to see why (4) cannot also be considered to be
a passive. In (4), <i>bèi</i> is not flagging <i>jĭngchá</i>
'police' but rather is marking the entire phrase <i>jĭngchá
tuō-zŏu-le</i>
<style>@font-face
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mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}</style> — it may thus be analyzed as an instance
of "verb(-phrase) coding". <br>
<br>
Many Southeast Asian languages have paradigms which correspond
to that in (1) - (4) except that, in the counterpart of (4),
the agent phrase follows rather than precedes the verb. Such
constructions are commonly referred to as "passives", or, more
specifically, as "periphrastic" or sometimes "adversative
passives". Moreover, in such languages, the counterpart of
Mandarin <i>bèi</i> is presumably also applying to the
verb-plus-agent phrase as a whole. So the only obvious
difference between such constructions and Mandarin (4) is that
of word order. (I say "*obvious* difference" because it may
be the case that syntactic tests will show that <i>jĭngchá</i>
in (4) has more subject properties than do the usual Southeast
Asian postverbal agent phrases, in which case the
prototypicality of (4) as a passive would decrease
accordingly. But has anybody shown this to be the case?)</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/03/2021 19:31, Chao Li wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAL3Jw8RW9h=M9CH5d7OHZNHF3OFeXCUtQGm7LJoPgR8MnQhxgA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Dear Martin,</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">It perhaps depends on what you mean
by “verb-coded”. For example, in what sense is the
English passive construction verb-coded? In a Mandarin
sentence like (1), the meaning is passive and crucially
it is coded with the passive morpheme <i>bèi</i>, which
historically could be used as a verb that means “to
suffer”. The single argument in (1) can also correspond
to the Patient argument of an active sentence like (2)
or (3). Moreover, it can be said that the Agent argument
gets suppressed in (1). Therefore, it appears reasonable
to analyze (1) as a passive construction both
Chinese-internally and crosslinguistically. As for
whether a </span> <i>bèi</i><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">-construction like (4) can be
analyzed as a passive construction that fits the
definition, such an analysis is possible if one accepts
the (controversial and debatable) assumption that <i>bèi</i>
in (4) assumes not only its primary role of being a
passive marker but also an additional role of being a
preposition. </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<img src="cid:part1.2FD9454C.BA4AC15E@shh.mpg.de"
alt="image.png" class="" width="412" height="253">
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><br>
</p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Chao</span></p>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at
10:07 AM Martin Haspelmath <<a
href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de"
moz-do-not-send="true">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> According to my favourite definition of "passive
construction", these Mandarin examples are (apparently)
not passive constructions:<br>
<br>
<font size="-1">"A passive voice construction is a
verb-coded valency construction (i) whose sister
valency construction is transitive and not verb-coded,
and (ii) which has an S-argument corresponding to the
transitive P, and (iii) which has a suppressed or
oblique-flagged argument corresponding to the
transitive A".</font><br>
<br>
According to this definition, a passive construction
"marks both the agent and the verb" (unless the agent is
suppressed or otherwise absent). But Ian Joo's question
was probably about languages where the SAME marker can
occur on the verb and on the oblique agent. This would
be very unusual, because passive voice markers are not
expected to be similar to an oblique agent flag.<br>
<br>
Now my question is: Are these Mandarin (and
Shanghainese) BEI/GEI-constructions passives? They have
traditionally been called passives, but since the BEI
element is obligatory, while the agent can be omitted (<i>Zhangsan
bei (Lisi) da le</i> 'Zhangsan was hit (by Lisi)'), it
cannot be a preposition or case prefix. At least that
would seem to follow from the definition of
"affix/adposition". So I think this construction doesn't
fall under a rigorous definition of "passive
construction". (Rather, it is a sui generis
construction.)<br>
<br>
Some authors might say that it is a "noncanonical
passive" (cf. Legate, Julie Anne. 2021. Noncanonical
passives: A typology of voices in an impoverished
Universal Grammar. <i>Annual Review of Linguistics</i>
7(1). doi:<a
href="https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459</a>),
but there does not seem to be a clear limit to this
vague notion (is every topicalization construction a
noncanonical passive?). I do not know of a fully
explicit definition of "passive construction" that
clearly includes the Mandarin BEI constructions.<br>
<span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1146%2Fannurev-linguistics-031920-114459&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Noncanonical%20passives%3A%20A%20typology%20of%20voices%20in%20an%20impoverished%20Universal%20Grammar&rft.jtitle=Annual%20Review%20of%20Linguistics&rft.volume=7&rft.issue=1&rft.aufirst=Julie%20Anne&rft.aulast=Legate&rft.au=Julie%20Anne%20Legate&rft.date=2021"></span><br>
Best wishes,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 28.02.21 um 19:46 schrieb bingfu Lu:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-size:16px;font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">A
better example in Mandarin may be:</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Zhangsan
bei-Lisi gei-da-le.</span><br
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Zhangsan
PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF</span><br
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">`Zhangsan
was hit by Lisi.'</span></div>
<div style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">'bei'
is etymologically related to 'suffer' while‘给’
to 'give'.</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">In
fact, </div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><span><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Zhangsan
bei-(Lisi) da-le.</span></span><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">can
also change to</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Zhangsan
gei-(Lisi） da-le.</span></span><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br>
</span></span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">Furthermore,
in Shanghainese, the PASS is a morpheme
homophonic to the morpheme for 'give'.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr">regards,<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Bingfu
Lu</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Beijing
Language University</div>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyahoo_quoted_4775567649">
<div style="font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)">
<div> On Sunday, February 28, 2021, 10:26:36 PM
GMT+8, JOO, Ian [Student] <a
href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a>
wrote: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyiv9747170334">
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
I wonder if you are aware of any
language whose passive construction
marks both the agent and the verb.<br>
For example, in Mandarin, the agent
receives the passive marker <em>bei.</em><br>
<br>
(1) Zhangsan bei-Lisi da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
<br>
When the agent is omitted, the verb
receives <em>bei</em>.<br>
<br>
(2) Zhangsan bei-da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit.'<br>
<br>
But, in some occasions, both the agent
and the verb receive <em>bei</em>:<br>
<br>
(3) Zhangsan bei-Lisi bei-da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
<br>
Are you aware of any other language
where a construction like (3) is
possible?<br>
The only one I am aware of at the moment
is Vietnamese.<br>
I would greatly appreciate any help.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
Regards,
<div>Ian</div>
</div>
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David Gil
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Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
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Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
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Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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