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With all due respect, I feel like we’re talking past one another yet again. As I understand things, at least, “passive” has both structural and functional definitions precisely because it is a type of construction that develops certain structural properties
over time in response to language users’ efforts to code a particular communicative function: maintaining topicality (and/or subjecthood, in languages that code topics as subjects) of a referent when it is also undergoer of a transitive verb/clause. That can
be accomplished several ways, as Tom G. discussed in the paper cited and in several other places, and depending on a language’s grammar and prosody, it can shape grammaticalization of a construction and its markers in several ways. But - given its function
- it will <i class="">tend</i><span style="font-style: normal;" class=""> to involve special marking of a non-prototypically undergoer topic/subject, </span><i class="">tend</i><span style="font-style: normal;" class=""> to involve marking of a non-prototypically-functioning
verb, and </span><i class="">may also</i><span style="font-style: normal;" class=""> involve marking of a non-prototypically-agentive participant elsewhere in the clause.</span> In the case of Mandarin, the
<i class="">bei</i><span style="font-style: normal;" class=""> construction is one of the more frequent constructions dedicated to coding this sort of function, and the erstwhile serialized verb
</span><i class="">bei</i> ’suffer’ has indeed specialised through this process as a dedicated marker of this construction. But it still retains some verbal properties, such as prototypically adversative semantics, due to the nature of Sinitic grammaticalization
pathways (many functional markers derive from serialized verbs and relator nouns, and tend to retain many of their erstwhile lexical properties for long periods thereafter). This being the case, to subject Sinitic grammars to analysis by means of
<i class="">structural</i> definitions derived primarily from the study of European languages (is
<i class="">bei </i>a (European-style) “preposition”?) is to set oneself up for likely failure (failure, that is, to adequately comprehend and represent the facts of the target language) from the get-go.
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<div class="">Again, with due respect to Martin who has no doubt heard this dozens of times, understands the issues, and is prepared to hold the line on “comparative concepts” being essentially stipulative and thus not subject to evaluation as “correct” or
“incorrect”, I really think that this is a good illustration of how, in practice, that principle yields irreconcilably confusing results. One cannot help but develop a “comparative concept” on the basis of languages that one knows best, and structural definitions
of “passive” tend strongly to favour a viewpoint from European languages. Hold this line too strongly, and one either misses or, potentially, includes and thereby distorts the properties of, constructions that evolved in response to the same sorts of functional
pressures, but in different types of languages. Where does one draw lines in cases like this, when it isn’t clear what formulation of a comparative concept is going to be the better formulation - one that includes a
<i class="">bei-</i><span style="font-style: normal;" class="">construction, or one that doesn't</span>? I don’t see that we yet have an agreed set of principles for determining this, nor do we seem content with the uncertainties that can result. </div>
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<div class="">The “solution”, I think, is to take language-specific structural, functional, and (when possible) historical factors into account at all times. The problem, of course, is that this makes large-scale comparison using cleanly stipulative definitions
practically impossible. But at least we can understand why that is so, in terms of the “facts of the languages” themselves, to recall LaPolla’s piece in LT. </div>
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<div class="">Mark <br class="">
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<div class="">On 23 Mar 2021, at 08:58, Dryer, Matthew <<a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" class="">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
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<a name="_GoBack" class=""></a><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" class="">Re Martin’s<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" class="">But I now think it must be definitional, because "A-demoting" constructions without verb coding are simply ergative constructions.</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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In languages in which a passive construction gets reanalysed as a basic construction with an ergative , what happens is the former oblique A acquires the properties of a syntactic argument of the verb, where before it behaved like an oblique. So A-demoting
constructions, i.e. ones where the A behaves like an oblique, are not ergative constructions, as far as normal usage is concerned.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Matthew<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<b class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday, March 22, 2021 at 6:16 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Lingtyp] Double-marked passive<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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In his 1994 paper "The pragmatics of de-transitive voice", T. Givón gave a purely functional definition of "passive" that made no reference to verbal marking: a construction in which "the patient is more topical than the agent, and the agent is extremely non-topical"
(contrasting with "inverse voice", where the agent retains more topicality).<br class="">
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That was an interesting concept, but we simply don't use the term "passive" in this way. Since Siewierska (1984) and Keenan (1985) at the latest, there has been a widespread understanding of a passive construction as involving P promotion and A demotion, plus
verbal marking. So this is actually a primarily formal definition. (In my 1990 paper on "passive morphology", I did not take the verb coding as definitional and claimed that it was an empirical finding that it was always there. But I now think it must be definitional,
because "A-demoting" constructions without verb coding are simply ergative constructions.)<br class="">
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I think the verb coding has to be affixal, because otherwise we don't know for sure that it's associated with the verb. Moreover, we want to say that a passive construction is a "voice construction" (cf. Zúñiga & Kittilä 2019), and voice alternations are best
defined as valency alternations with verb coding.<br class="">
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(I'm not sure about the notion of an "isolating" language; Chinese certainly has a number of verbal affixes, and I don't know of a language that lacks verbal affixation entirely; on the notion of "affix", see my 2021 paper in<i class="">Voprosy Jazykoznanija</i>:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/jVOqC0YKPviG2p27JswfryE?domain=zenodo.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://zenodo.org/record/4628279</a>).<br class="">
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Best,<br class="">
Martin<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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Am 22.03.21 um 20:57 schrieb Daniel Ross:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Martin, are you suggesting that isolating languages cannot have passives? Surely function shouldn't be necessarily tied to form?<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Serial verb constructions are well known to develop into passive constructions in some languages. Are you suggesting that cannot happen until the construction morphologizes?<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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There are certainly some details to work out in the definition, but as a rough approximation, I'm not sure why there cannot be a passive auxiliary in these cases. English also has a passive auxiliary (BE), which happens to select for a verb in the participle
form (-EN). But if English allowed for a bare verb complement of BE in that construction, would that not be a passive either?<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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One important point I'm trying to emphasize with my own research is that definitions should, as much as possible, avoid conflating form and function. Passivization is a function, not a form. It has to do with argument structure, not how it is marked morphosyntactically.
As a draft of a simple comparative concept, a passive is a construction (that is, any form) that demotes the subject (i.e. A, etc.) argument (typically making it optional), while promoting the object (i.e. P, etc.) to that role. That could be via morphology,
or an auxiliary verb, or perhaps something else (maybe just case marking?).<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:03 PM Guillaume Jacques <<a href="mailto:rgyalrongskad@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rgyalrongskad@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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From my perspective, the problem with a definition including "primarily associated with the expression of" is that it would exclude non-dedicated passives, i.e. polyfunctional morphemes one of whose function is passive, but also used with other functions.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Guillaume<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Le lun. 22 mars 2021 à 19:53, Chao Li <<a href="mailto:chao.li@aya.yale.edu" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">chao.li@aya.yale.edu</a>> a écrit :<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman ,serif", serif;" class="">Dear Martin,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman ,serif", serif;" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman ,serif", serif;" class="">I agree that any definition of a comparative concept will likely result in the exclusion of some “legacy cases”. Given
that you are using “passive” as a comparative concept in a very ambitious sense and given that you have all human languages in mind and would like to have a definition as clear and inclusive as possible, there is the question of the extent of the cases that
will be excluded by the definition you referred to. To what extent are passives described in specific language grammars coded with an affix on the verb and to what extent are they not? Does anyone on this list server have a more or less clear answer on this?
Then as for the possibility of a definition of passive that might also cover cases like Mandarin, how about the replacement of a passive affix on the verb with a grammatical morpheme primarily associated with the expression of a passive meaning? Would that
work? </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman ,serif", serif;" class="">Best regards,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman ,serif", serif;" class="">Chao</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 1:03 PM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Yes, comparative concepts cannot be right or wrong, but traditional terms can be defined in a better or less good way. Note that the original question by Ian Joo used the traditional term "passive", assuming that we know what it means (not necessarily assuming
that "passive" is a concept that is useful for typological generalizations).<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Good definitions of traditional terms are (i) clear (i.e. based on clear concepts) and (ii) largely coextensive with legacy usage. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Traditional terms can rarely be defined clearly in such a way that the definition covers ALL legacy cases. So while the Chinese<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">bèi<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>construction is similar
to the Swahili Passive, I don’t see that we can have a definition of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">passive</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>that covers both. Maybe even the English Passive is not included. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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By contrast, I don’t see why Papuan Malay<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">dapa-pukul</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>shouldn’t be included. Isn’t<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">dapa-</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>a
passive prefix? (And similarly Riau Indonesian<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">kena-pukul</i>.)<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Martin<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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Am 22.03.21 um 12:25 schrieb David Gil:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div class="">Martin,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">As you've pointed out on numerous occasions, comparative concepts can't be right or wrong, they can only be more or less useful as tools for typological generalizations. Still, with that in mind, I suspect that a comparative concept of "passive"
that subsumes, say, the rather garden-variety constructions in (1) and (2), rather than excluding them on the grounds that the verb lacks an affix, as you would have things, will turn out to be more useful for typologists (not to mention conforming more closely
with common every-day usage).<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">(1) Riau Indonesian<br class="">
<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">Yusuf kena pukul sama Musa</i><br class="">
Yusuf PASS hit together Musa<br class="">
'Yusuf got hit by Musa'<br class="">
[cf. "active"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">Musa pukul Yusuf</i>]<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">(1) Papuan Malay<br class="">
<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">Yusuf dapa pukul dari Musa</i><br class="">
Yusuf PASS hit from Musa<br class="">
'Yusuf got hit by Musa'<br class="">
[cf. "active"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">Musa pukul Yusuf</i>]<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">David<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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On 22/03/2021 08:24, Martin Haspelmath wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Yes, the definition that I use presupposes an understanding of "verb-coded" and "adposition", but this is typical of definitions: They work only if their component parts are defined or understood clearly.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
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So is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">bèi</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>a verb-coding element in (1) and (4)? It could be said to be "verb-phrase coding" (as David notes), but the notion of "verb phrase" is not cross-linguistically
applicable in an obvious way. So I would restrict "passive" (as a comparative concept) to forms where the verb has an affix (because this is the only situation in which the two sister constructions are clearly asymmetric). Now is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">bèi</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>a
prefix in (1)? This would be possible only if<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">bèi</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in (1) and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">bèi</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in
(4) are two different elements – and it seems that we do not want to say this.<br class="">
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Chao rightly asks: "In what sense is the English passive construction verb-coded?" The English Passive includes an Auxiliary, but there is no good cross-linguistic definition of "auxiliary", so we don't want to say that auxiliaries can be criterial for passives.
Some English verbs have what looks like a passive affix (e.g.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">-en</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">tak-en</i>), but the English Passive
construction does not clearly fall under the definition that I gave. (A good illustration of "passive" is Siewierska's first example in her WALS chapter, from Swahili:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">chakula kilipik-<b class="">wa</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(na
Hamisi)</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'The food was cooked by Hamisi').<br class="">
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There is a tradition of appealing to "tests for subject properties" (going back to Keenan 1976), but this seems appropriate only at the language-particular level. Since these tests are different in different languages, this approach does not work well in a
comparative context.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best,<br class="">
Martin<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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Am 21.03.21 um 20:28 schrieb David Gil:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div class="">Chao, Martin,<br class="">
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I agree with Chao's characterization of Mandarin (1) as being a passive under most or all reasonable definitions thereof; however, I fail to see why (4) cannot also be considered to be a passive. In (4),<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">bèi</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is
not flagging<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">jĭngchá</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'police' but rather is marking the entire phrase <i class="">jĭngchá tuō-zŏu-le</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>— it may
thus be analyzed as an instance of "verb(-phrase) coding". <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
Many Southeast Asian languages have paradigms which correspond to that in (1) - (4) except that, in the counterpart of (4), the agent phrase follows rather than precedes the verb. Such constructions are commonly referred to as "passives", or, more specifically,
as "periphrastic" or sometimes "adversative passives". Moreover, in such languages, the counterpart of Mandarin<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">bèi</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is presumably also applying to the verb-plus-agent
phrase as a whole. So the only obvious difference between such constructions and Mandarin (4) is that of word order. (I say "*obvious* difference" because it may be the case that syntactic tests will show that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">jĭngchá</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in
(4) has more subject properties than do the usual Southeast Asian postverbal agent phrases, in which case the prototypicality of (4) as a passive would decrease accordingly. But has anybody shown this to be the case?)<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">David<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
On 21/03/2021 19:31, Chao Li wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class="">Dear Martin,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class="">It perhaps depends on what you mean by “verb-coded”. For example, in what sense is the English passive construction verb-coded? In a Mandarin sentence like (1), the meaning is passive and crucially it
is coded with the passive morpheme<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">bèi</i>, which historically could be used as a verb that means “to suffer”. The single argument in (1) can also correspond to the Patient argument of an active sentence
like (2) or (3). Moreover, it can be said that the Agent argument gets suppressed in (1). Therefore, it appears reasonable to analyze (1) as a passive construction both Chinese-internally and crosslinguistically. As for whether a <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">bèi</i>-construction
like (4) can be analyzed as a passive construction that fits the definition, such an analysis is possible if one accepts the (controversial and debatable) assumption that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">bèi</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in
(4) assumes not only its primary role of being a passive marker but also an additional role of being a preposition.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span id="cid:image001.png@01D71F4D.666F9310"><image001.png></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class="">Best regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;" class="">Chao<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 10:07 AM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class="" type="cite">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
According to my favourite definition of "passive construction", these Mandarin examples are (apparently) not passive constructions:<br class="">
<br class="">
<span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">"A passive voice construction is a verb-coded valency construction (i) whose sister valency construction is transitive and not verb-coded, and (ii) which has an S-argument corresponding to the transitive P, and (iii)
which has a suppressed or oblique-flagged argument corresponding to the transitive A".</span><br class="">
<br class="">
According to this definition, a passive construction "marks both the agent and the verb" (unless the agent is suppressed or otherwise absent). But Ian Joo's question was probably about languages where the SAME marker can occur on the verb and on the oblique
agent. This would be very unusual, because passive voice markers are not expected to be similar to an oblique agent flag.<br class="">
<br class="">
Now my question is: Are these Mandarin (and Shanghainese) BEI/GEI-constructions passives? They have traditionally been called passives, but since the BEI element is obligatory, while the agent can be omitted (<i class="">Zhangsan bei (Lisi) da le</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'Zhangsan
was hit (by Lisi)'), it cannot be a preposition or case prefix. At least that would seem to follow from the definition of "affix/adposition". So I think this construction doesn't fall under a rigorous definition of "passive construction". (Rather, it is a
sui generis construction.)<br class="">
<br class="">
Some authors might say that it is a "noncanonical passive" (cf. Legate, Julie Anne. 2021. Noncanonical passives: A typology of voices in an impoverished Universal Grammar.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">Annual Review of Linguistics</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>7(1).
doi:<a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/vJ5HCgZ0N1iAlDloPuojPBM?domain=doi.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459</a>), but there does not seem to be a clear limit to
this vague notion (is every topicalization construction a noncanonical passive?). I do not know of a fully explicit definition of "passive construction" that clearly includes the Mandarin BEI constructions.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best wishes,<br class="">
Martin<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
Am 28.02.21 um 19:46 schrieb bingfu Lu:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
A better example in Mandarin may be:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
Zhangsan bei-Lisi gei-da-le.<br class="">
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF<br class="">
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
'bei' is etymologically related to 'suffer' while‘<span style="font-family: "PingFang TC", sans-serif;" class="">给</span>’ to 'give'.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
In fact, <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
Zhangsan bei-(Lisi) da-le.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">can also change to</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">Zhangsan gei-(Lisi</span><span style="font-family: "MS Mincho"; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">）</span><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">
da-le.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);" class="">Furthermore, in Shanghainese, the PASS is a morpheme homophonic to the morpheme for 'give'.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
Bingfu Lu<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
Beijing Language University<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_5319021477283321762gmail-m_-5660392288109528183gmail-m_-9220910343995609513gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyahoo_quoted_4775567649" class="">
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<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
On Sunday, February 28, 2021, 10:26:36 PM GMT+8, JOO, Ian [Student]<a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a>wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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<div class="">
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<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
Dear typologists,<br class="">
<br class="">
I wonder if you are aware of any language whose passive construction marks both the agent and the verb.<br class="">
For example, in Mandarin, the agent receives the passive marker <em class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">bei.</span></em><br class="">
<br class="">
(1) Zhangsan bei-Lisi da-le.<br class="">
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi hit-PRF<br class="">
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br class="">
<br class="">
When the agent is omitted, the verb receives <em class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">bei</span></em>.<br class="">
<br class="">
(2) Zhangsan bei-da-le.<br class="">
Zhangsan PASS-hit-PRF<br class="">
`Zhangsan was hit.'<br class="">
<br class="">
But, in some occasions, both the agent and the verb receive <em class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">bei</span></em>:<br class="">
<br class="">
(3) Zhangsan bei-Lisi bei-da-le.<br class="">
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF<br class="">
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br class="">
<br class="">
Are you aware of any other language where a construction like (3) is possible?<br class="">
The only one I am aware of at the moment is Vietnamese.<br class="">
I would greatly appreciate any help.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<br class="">
Regards,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
Ian<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/_icXCjZ1N7injVjBlf5wcAG?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">-- <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">David Gil<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Senior Scientist (Associate)<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">_______________________________________________<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Lingtyp mailing list<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/_icXCjZ1N7injVjBlf5wcAG?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
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<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">-- <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Martin Haspelmath<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Deutscher Platz 6<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">D-04103 Leipzig<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/yvT2Ck81N9tOnPnKYc9efYF?domain=shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
Lingtyp mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class="">
<a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/_icXCjZ1N7injVjBlf5wcAG?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
Lingtyp mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class="">
<a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/_icXCjZ1N7injVjBlf5wcAG?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<br clear="all" class="">
<br class="">
--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
Guillaume Jacques<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
Directeur de recherches<br class="">
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO - EHESS<br class="">
<a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/Rw6YClx1Nji2ojoVOi15E1K?domain=cnrs.academia.edu" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/z3NWCmO5gluj595g1sDE5vx?domain=panchr.hypotheses.org/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://panchr.hypotheses.org/</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
Lingtyp mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class="">
<a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/_icXCjZ1N7injVjBlf5wcAG?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">-- <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Martin Haspelmath<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Deutscher Platz 6<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">D-04103 Leipzig<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class=""><a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/yvT2Ck81N9tOnPnKYc9efYF?domain=shh.mpg.de" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
</div>
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Lingtyp
mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/_icXCjZ1N7injVjBlf5wcAG?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/_icXCjZ1N7injVjBlf5wcAG?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
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