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Yes, the definition that I use presupposes an understanding of
"verb-coded" and "adposition", but this is typical of definitions:
They work only if their component parts are defined or understood
clearly. <br>
<br>
So is <i>bèi</i> a verb-coding element in (1) and (4)? It could be
said to be "verb-phrase coding" (as David notes), but the notion of
"verb phrase" is not cross-linguistically applicable in an obvious
way. So I would restrict "passive" (as a comparative concept) to
forms where the verb has an affix (because this is the only
situation in which the two sister constructions are clearly
asymmetric). Now is <i>bèi</i> a prefix in (1)? This would be
possible only if <i>bèi</i> in (1) and <i>bèi</i> in (4) are two
different elements – and it seems that we do not want to say this.<br>
<br>
Chao rightly asks: "In what sense is the English passive
construction verb-coded?" The English Passive includes an Auxiliary,
but there is no good cross-linguistic definition of "auxiliary", so
we don't want to say that auxiliaries can be criterial for passives.
Some English verbs have what looks like a passive affix (e.g. <i>-en</i>
in <i>tak-en</i>), but the English Passive construction does not
clearly fall under the definition that I gave. (A good illustration
of "passive" is Siewierska's first example in her WALS chapter, from
Swahili: <i>chakula kilipik-<b>wa</b> (na Hamisi)</i> 'The food was
cooked by Hamisi').<br>
<br>
There is a tradition of appealing to "tests for subject properties"
(going back to Keenan 1976), but this seems appropriate only at the
language-particular level. Since these tests are different in
different languages, this approach does not work well in a
comparative context.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.03.21 um 20:28 schrieb David Gil:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8b99d376-6266-a5d8-2bdc-119833daaa34@shh.mpg.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Chao, Martin,<br>
<br>
I agree with Chao's characterization of Mandarin (1) as being a
passive under most or all reasonable definitions thereof;
however, I fail to see why (4) cannot also be considered to be a
passive. In (4), <i>bèi</i> is not flagging <i>jĭngchá</i>
'police' but rather is marking the entire phrase <i>jĭngchá
tuō-zŏu-le</i>
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{page:WordSection1;}</style> — it may thus be analyzed as an instance
of "verb(-phrase) coding". <br>
<br>
Many Southeast Asian languages have paradigms which correspond
to that in (1) - (4) except that, in the counterpart of (4), the
agent phrase follows rather than precedes the verb. Such
constructions are commonly referred to as "passives", or, more
specifically, as "periphrastic" or sometimes "adversative
passives". Moreover, in such languages, the counterpart of
Mandarin <i>bèi</i> is presumably also applying to the
verb-plus-agent phrase as a whole. So the only obvious
difference between such constructions and Mandarin (4) is that
of word order. (I say "*obvious* difference" because it may be
the case that syntactic tests will show that <i>jĭngchá</i> in
(4) has more subject properties than do the usual Southeast
Asian postverbal agent phrases, in which case the
prototypicality of (4) as a passive would decrease accordingly.
But has anybody shown this to be the case?)</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/03/2021 19:31, Chao Li wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAL3Jw8RW9h=M9CH5d7OHZNHF3OFeXCUtQGm7LJoPgR8MnQhxgA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Dear Martin,</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">It perhaps depends on what you mean by
“verb-coded”. For example, in what sense is the English
passive construction verb-coded? In a Mandarin sentence
like (1), the meaning is passive and crucially it is coded
with the passive morpheme <i>bèi</i>, which historically
could be used as a verb that means “to suffer”. The single
argument in (1) can also correspond to the Patient
argument of an active sentence like (2) or (3). Moreover,
it can be said that the Agent argument gets suppressed in
(1). Therefore, it appears reasonable to analyze (1) as a
passive construction both Chinese-internally and
crosslinguistically. As for whether a </span> <i>bèi</i><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">-construction like (4) can be analyzed
as a passive construction that fits the definition, such
an analysis is possible if one accepts the (controversial
and debatable) assumption that <i>bèi</i> in (4) assumes
not only its primary role of being a passive marker but
also an additional role of being a preposition. </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<img src="cid:part1.44CA955B.970C7792@eva.mpg.de"
alt="image.png" class="" width="412" height="253">
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><br>
</p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Chao</span></p>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at
10:07 AM Martin Haspelmath <<a
href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de"
moz-do-not-send="true">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> According to my favourite definition of "passive
construction", these Mandarin examples are (apparently)
not passive constructions:<br>
<br>
<font size="-1">"A passive voice construction is a
verb-coded valency construction (i) whose sister valency
construction is transitive and not verb-coded, and (ii)
which has an S-argument corresponding to the transitive
P, and (iii) which has a suppressed or oblique-flagged
argument corresponding to the transitive A".</font><br>
<br>
According to this definition, a passive construction
"marks both the agent and the verb" (unless the agent is
suppressed or otherwise absent). But Ian Joo's question
was probably about languages where the SAME marker can
occur on the verb and on the oblique agent. This would be
very unusual, because passive voice markers are not
expected to be similar to an oblique agent flag.<br>
<br>
Now my question is: Are these Mandarin (and Shanghainese)
BEI/GEI-constructions passives? They have traditionally
been called passives, but since the BEI element is
obligatory, while the agent can be omitted (<i>Zhangsan
bei (Lisi) da le</i> 'Zhangsan was hit (by Lisi)'), it
cannot be a preposition or case prefix. At least that
would seem to follow from the definition of
"affix/adposition". So I think this construction doesn't
fall under a rigorous definition of "passive
construction". (Rather, it is a sui generis construction.)<br>
<br>
Some authors might say that it is a "noncanonical passive"
(cf. Legate, Julie Anne. 2021. Noncanonical passives: A
typology of voices in an impoverished Universal Grammar. <i>Annual
Review of Linguistics</i> 7(1). doi:<a
href="https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459</a>),
but there does not seem to be a clear limit to this vague
notion (is every topicalization construction a
noncanonical passive?). I do not know of a fully explicit
definition of "passive construction" that clearly includes
the Mandarin BEI constructions.<br>
<span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1146%2Fannurev-linguistics-031920-114459&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Noncanonical%20passives%3A%20A%20typology%20of%20voices%20in%20an%20impoverished%20Universal%20Grammar&rft.jtitle=Annual%20Review%20of%20Linguistics&rft.volume=7&rft.issue=1&rft.aufirst=Julie%20Anne&rft.aulast=Legate&rft.au=Julie%20Anne%20Legate&rft.date=2021"></span><br>
Best wishes,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 28.02.21 um 19:46 schrieb bingfu Lu:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-size:16px;font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">A
better example in Mandarin may be:</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Zhangsan
bei-Lisi gei-da-le.</span><br
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Zhangsan
PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF</span><br
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">`Zhangsan
was hit by Lisi.'</span></div>
<div style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">'bei'
is etymologically related to 'suffer' while‘给’ to
'give'.</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">In
fact, </div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><span><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Zhangsan
bei-(Lisi) da-le.</span></span><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">can
also change to</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">Zhangsan
gei-(Lisi） da-le.</span></span><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br>
</span></span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">Furthermore,
in Shanghainese, the PASS is a morpheme
homophonic to the morpheme for 'give'.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr">regards,<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Bingfu
Lu</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif">Beijing
Language University</div>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:"courier
new",courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyahoo_quoted_4775567649">
<div style="font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)">
<div> On Sunday, February 28, 2021, 10:26:36 PM
GMT+8, JOO, Ian [Student] <a
href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a>
wrote: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyiv9747170334">
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
I wonder if you are aware of any language
whose passive construction marks both the
agent and the verb.<br>
For example, in Mandarin, the agent
receives the passive marker <em>bei.</em><br>
<br>
(1) Zhangsan bei-Lisi da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
<br>
When the agent is omitted, the verb
receives <em>bei</em>.<br>
<br>
(2) Zhangsan bei-da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit.'<br>
<br>
But, in some occasions, both the agent and
the verb receive <em>bei</em>:<br>
<br>
(3) Zhangsan bei-Lisi bei-da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
<br>
Are you aware of any other language where
a construction like (3) is possible?<br>
The only one I am aware of at the moment
is Vietnamese.<br>
I would greatly appreciate any help.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
Regards,
<div>Ian</div>
</div>
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