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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Danqing,</div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">allow me an elementary question, being
      ignorant about Chinese: Why don't you analyze thus your two
      examples:<br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">
      <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">  (1)  Jiang4  bei4   sha1.</div>
      <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">       general suffer [kill] 
        'The general suffered killing = The general was killed'</div>
      <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">  (2) Jiang4  bei4   wang2
        sha1.</div>
      <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">      general suffer [king 
        kill]  '<span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
            lucida console, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">The general
            suffered the King's killing = The general was killed by the
            King'</span></span></div>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">This bracketing is meant to represent
      an analysis by which bei4 is an auxiliary, preceding a phrase
      headed by the full verb, in both cases. Although grammaticalized,
      as you say, it is then neither a marker on the verb nor a
      preposition marking a passive agent, but just a passive auxiliary.</div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Christian<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:52580568.2399974.1616395085220@mail.yahoo.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div class="ydp8aacd807yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:
        lucida console, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Dear Colleagues:</div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">  The function word <i>bei4</i>
          is viewed as a particle (for the verb) in some cases and as a
          preposition in others in Chinese linguistics. It is a unique
          element even as a member of the preposition inventory. That is
          due to its unique grammaticalization pathway. Let me say a few
          words to explain it.</div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">    As Chao Li says, <i>bei4</i>
          originally was a verb denoting 'to suffer'. It can take either
          a noun (such as pain, insult) or a verb as its object, and the
          verbal object underwent no change in its verbal form. When <i>bei4</i>
          takes a verbal argument in Classic Chinese, the argument can
          be optionally  modified by an agent noun, thus, we have two
          forms of such 'suffering construction':</div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">  (1)  Jiang4  bei4   sha1.</div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">       general suffer kill 
          'The general suffered killing = The general was killed'</div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">  (2) Jiang4  bei4   wang2
          sha1.</div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">      general suffer king 
          kill  '<span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
              lucida console, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">The general
              suffered the King's killing = The general was killed by
              the King'</span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;"><br>
            </span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;">Later, according to some criteria, the
              above constructions underwent grammaticalization. '<i>Bei4</i>'
              in (1) was reanalyzed as a passive particle (marker) on
              the verb, while '<i>bei4</i>' in (2) was reanalyzed as a
              preposition, with the possessive agent noun reanalyzed as
              an oblique agent. This is a unique pathway among Chinese
              prepositions because most prepositions in Chinese came
              from verbs occurring in serial verb constructions. </span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;"><br>
            </span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;">     </span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;"><br>
            </span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;">  (1) is the source of the so-called
              short passive sentence in Mandarin while  (2) is the
              source of the so-called long passive sentence.</span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">      </div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">    For the details regarding
          the grammaticalization of <i>bei4</i>, see <span><span
              style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console,
              sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Zhang, <span><span
                  style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida
                  console, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Hongming  1994,
                  The grammaticalization of <i>bei</i> in Chinese, </span></span> in
              <i>Chinese Languages and Linguistics 2</i>, ed. by
              Jen-Kuei Li, Academia Sinica, Taipei.</span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;"><br>
            </span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;">  Danqing</span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;"><br>
            </span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;"><br>
            </span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;"><br>
            </span></span></div>
        <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color:
              rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console, sans-serif;
              font-size: 16px;"><br>
            </span></span></div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div id="ydp84b9ea36yahoo_quoted_7275995572"
        class="ydp84b9ea36yahoo_quoted">
        <div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,
          sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
          <div> On Monday, March 22, 2021, 1:32:25 AM GMT+8, Chao Li
            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chao.li@aya.yale.edu"><chao.li@aya.yale.edu></a> wrote: </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div id="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119">
              <div>
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <p class="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                    sans-serif;"><span
                      style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Dear
                      Martin,</span></p>
                  <p class="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                    sans-serif;"><span
                      style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> </span></p>
                  <p class="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                    sans-serif;"><span
                      style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">It
                      perhaps depends
                      on what you mean by “verb-coded”. For example, in
                      what sense is the English
                      passive construction verb-coded? In a Mandarin
                      sentence like (1), the meaning
                      is passive and crucially it is coded with the
                      passive morpheme <i>bèi</i>,
                      which historically could be used as a verb that
                      means “to suffer”. The single
                      argument in (1) can also correspond to the Patient
                      argument of an active
                      sentence like (2) or (3). Moreover, it can be said
                      that the Agent argument gets suppressed in (1).
                      Therefore,
                      it appears reasonable to analyze (1) as a passive
                      construction both Chinese-internally
                      and crosslinguistically. As for whether a </span>
                    <i>bèi</i><span
                      style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">-construction
                      like (4) can
                      be analyzed as a passive construction that fits
                      the definition, such an analysis
                      is possible if one accepts the (controversial and
                      debatable) assumption that <i>bèi</i>
                      in (4) assumes not only its primary role of being
                      a passive marker but also an
                      additional role of being a preposition. </span></p>
                  <p class="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                    sans-serif;"><span
                      style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;"> </span></p>
                  <img src="cid:uojd8nbd52huUff6xuEq" alt="image.png"
                    style="width: 412px; max-width: 752px;"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">
                  <p class="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                    sans-serif;"><span style="font-family:New
                      serif;font-size:12pt;"> </span><span
                      style="font-family:New serif;font-size:12pt;">  </span><br
                      clear="none">
                  </p>
                  <p class="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                    sans-serif;"><span
                      style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Best
                      regards,</span></p>
                  <p class="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-MsoNoSpacing"
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,
                    sans-serif;"><span
                      style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;">Chao</span></p>
                </div>
                <br clear="none">
                <div class="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail_quote">
                  <div class="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119yqt2697720087"
                    id="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119yqt58074">
                    <div class="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail_attr"
                      dir="ltr">On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 10:07 AM Martin
                      Haspelmath <<a shape="rect"
                        href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de"
                        target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>
                      wrote:<br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <blockquote
                      class="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail_quote"
                      style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px
                      solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
                      <div> According to my favourite definition of
                        "passive construction", these Mandarin examples
                        are (apparently) not passive constructions:<br
                          clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        <font size="-1">"A passive voice construction is
                          a verb-coded valency construction (i) whose
                          sister valency construction is transitive and
                          not verb-coded, and (ii) which has an
                          S-argument corresponding to the transitive P,
                          and (iii) which has a suppressed or
                          oblique-flagged argument corresponding to the
                          transitive A".</font><br clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        According to this definition, a passive
                        construction "marks both the agent and the verb"
                        (unless the agent is suppressed or otherwise
                        absent). But Ian Joo's question was probably
                        about languages where the SAME marker can occur
                        on the verb and on the oblique agent. This would
                        be very unusual, because passive voice markers
                        are not expected to be similar to an oblique
                        agent flag.<br clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        Now my question is: Are these Mandarin (and
                        Shanghainese) BEI/GEI-constructions passives?
                        They have traditionally been called passives,
                        but since the BEI element is obligatory, while
                        the agent can be omitted (<i>Zhangsan bei (Lisi)
                          da le</i> 'Zhangsan was hit (by Lisi)'), it
                        cannot be a preposition or case prefix. At least
                        that would seem to follow from the definition of
                        "affix/adposition". So I think this construction
                        doesn't fall under a rigorous definition of
                        "passive construction". (Rather, it is a sui
                        generis construction.)<br clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        Some authors might say that it is a
                        "noncanonical passive" (cf. Legate, Julie Anne.
                        2021. Noncanonical passives: A typology of
                        voices in an impoverished Universal Grammar. <i>Annual
                          Review of Linguistics</i> 7(1). doi:<a
                          shape="rect"
                          href="https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459"
                          target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459</a>),
                        but there does not seem to be a clear limit to
                        this vague notion (is every topicalization
                        construction a noncanonical passive?). I do not
                        know of a fully explicit definition of "passive
                        construction" that clearly includes the Mandarin
                        BEI constructions.<br clear="none">
                        <span
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1146%2Fannurev-linguistics-031920-114459&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Noncanonical%20passives%3A%20A%20typology%20of%20voices%20in%20an%20impoverished%20Universal%20Grammar&rft.jtitle=Annual%20Review%20of%20Linguistics&rft.volume=7&rft.issue=1&rft.aufirst=Julie%20Anne&rft.aulast=Legate&rft.au=Julie%20Anne%20Legate&rft.date=2021"></span><br
                          clear="none">
                        Best wishes,<br clear="none">
                        Martin<br clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        <div>Am 28.02.21 um 19:46 schrieb bingfu Lu:<br
                            clear="none">
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div
                            style="font-size:16px;font-family:courier,
                            monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">
                            <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier,
                              monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">A better
                              example in Mandarin may be:</div>
                            <div dir="ltr">
                              <div style="font-family:courier, monaco,
                                monospace, sans-serif;"><span
                                  style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica,
                                  Arial, sans-serif;">Zhangsan bei-Lisi 
                                      gei-da-le.</span><br
                                  style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica,
                                  Arial, sans-serif;" clear="none">
                                <span
                                  style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica,
                                  Arial, sans-serif;">Zhangsan
                                  PASS-Lisi  PASS-hit-PRF</span><br
                                  style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica,
                                  Arial, sans-serif;" clear="none">
                                <span
                                  style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica,
                                  Arial, sans-serif;">`Zhangsan was hit
                                  by Lisi.'</span></div>
                              <div style="font-family:courier, monaco,
                                monospace, sans-serif;"><br clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier,
                                monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">'bei' is
                                etymologically related to 'suffer'
                                while‘给’ to 'give'.</div>
                              <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier,
                                monaco, monospace, sans-serif;"><br
                                  clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier,
                                monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">In
                                fact, </div>
                              <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier,
                                monaco, monospace, sans-serif;"><span><span
style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica, Arial,
                                    sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Zhangsan
                                    bei-(Lisi)      da-le.</span></span><br
                                  clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
                                  Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"
                                  color="#26282a">can also change to</font></div>
                              <div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
                                  Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"
                                  color="#26282a"><span><span
                                      style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica,
                                      Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Zhangsan
                                      gei-(Lisi)      da-le.</span></span><br
                                    clear="none">
                                </font></div>
                              <div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
                                  Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"
                                  color="#26282a"><span><span
                                      style="color:rgb(38,40,42);font-family:Helvetica,
                                      Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br
                                        clear="none">
                                    </span></span></font></div>
                              <div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
                                  Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"
                                  color="#26282a">Furthermore, in
                                  Shanghainese, the PASS is a morpheme
                                  homophonic to the morpheme for 'give'.</font></div>
                              <div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
                                  Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"
                                  color="#26282a"><br clear="none">
                                </font></div>
                              <div dir="ltr">regards,<br clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier,
                                monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">Bingfu
                                Lu</div>
                              <div dir="ltr" style="font-family:courier,
                                monaco, monospace, sans-serif;">Beijing
                                Language University</div>
                              <br clear="none">
                            </div>
                            <div style="font-family:courier, monaco,
                              monospace, sans-serif;"><br clear="none">
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div
id="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyahoo_quoted_4775567649">
                            <div style="font-family:Helvetica, Arial,
                              sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42);">
                              <div> On Sunday, February 28, 2021,
                                10:26:36 PM GMT+8, JOO, Ian [Student] <a
                                  shape="rect"
                                  href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"
                                  target="_blank" rel="noreferrer
                                  noopener" moz-do-not-send="true"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a>
                                wrote: </div>
                              <div><br clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div><br clear="none">
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div
id="ydp84b9ea36yiv3911680119gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyiv9747170334">
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>Dear typologists,<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        <br clear="none">
                                        I wonder if you are aware of any
                                        language whose passive
                                        construction marks both the
                                        agent and the verb.<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        For example, in Mandarin, the
                                        agent receives the passive
                                        marker <em>bei.</em><br
                                          clear="none">
                                        <br clear="none">
                                        (1) Zhangsan bei-Lisi da-le.<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        Zhangsan PASS-Lisi hit-PRF<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        `Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        <br clear="none">
                                        When the agent is omitted, the
                                        verb receives <em>bei</em>.<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        <br clear="none">
                                        (2) Zhangsan bei-da-le.<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        Zhangsan PASS-hit-PRF<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        `Zhangsan was hit.'<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        <br clear="none">
                                        But, in some occasions, both the
                                        agent and the verb receive <em>bei</em>:<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        <br clear="none">
                                        (3) Zhangsan bei-Lisi bei-da-le.<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        Zhangsan PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        `Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        <br clear="none">
                                        Are you aware of any other
                                        language where a construction
                                        like (3) is possible?<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        The only one I am aware of at
                                        the moment is Vietnamese.<br
                                          clear="none">
                                        I would greatly appreciate any
                                        help.</div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><br clear="none">
                                      Regards,
                                      <div>Ian</div>
                                    </div>
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                          <pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
                        </blockquote>
                        <br clear="none">
                        <pre>-- 
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a shape="rect" href="https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a></pre>
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      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
        Rudolfstr. 4<br>
        99092 Erfurt<br>
        <span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
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            <td>Tel.:</td>
            <td>+49/361/2113417</td>
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            <td>Web:</td>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a></td>
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