<div dir="ltr"><div>Martin, are you suggesting that isolating languages cannot have passives? Surely function shouldn't be necessarily tied to form?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Serial verb constructions are well known to develop into passive constructions in some languages. Are you suggesting that cannot happen until the construction morphologizes?</div><div><br></div><div>There are certainly some details to work out in the definition, but as a rough approximation, I'm not sure why there cannot be a passive auxiliary in these cases. English also has a passive auxiliary (BE), which happens to select for a verb in the participle form (-EN). But if English allowed for a bare verb complement of BE in that construction, would that not be a passive either?</div><div><br></div><div>One important point I'm trying to emphasize with my own research is that definitions should, as much as possible, avoid conflating form and function. Passivization is a function, not a form. It has to do with argument structure, not how it is marked morphosyntactically. As a draft of a simple comparative concept, a passive is a construction (that is, any form) that demotes the subject (i.e. A, etc.) argument (typically making it optional), while promoting the object (i.e. P, etc.) to that role. That could be via morphology, or an auxiliary verb, or perhaps something else (maybe just case marking?).<br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:03 PM Guillaume Jacques <<a href="mailto:rgyalrongskad@gmail.com">rgyalrongskad@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>From my perspective, the problem with a definition including "primarily associated with the expression of" is that it would exclude non-dedicated passives, i.e. polyfunctional morphemes one of whose function is passive, but also used with other functions.</div><div><br></div><div>Guillaume<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le lun. 22 mars 2021 à 19:53, Chao Li <<a href="mailto:chao.li@aya.yale.edu" target="_blank">chao.li@aya.yale.edu</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Dear Martin,</span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I agree that any
definition of a comparative concept will likely result in the exclusion of some
“legacy cases”. Given that you are using “passive” as a comparative concept in a
very ambitious sense and given that you have all human languages in mind and
would like to have a definition as clear and inclusive as possible, there is
the question of the extent of the cases that will be excluded by the definition
you referred to. To what extent are passives described in specific language
grammars coded with an affix on the verb and to what extent are they not? Does anyone on this list server have a more or
less clear answer on this? Then as for the possibility of a definition of passive
that might also cover cases like Mandarin, how about the replacement of a
passive affix on the verb with a grammatical morpheme primarily associated with
the expression of a passive meaning? Would that work? </span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Best regards,</span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Chao</span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 1:03 PM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
Yes, comparative concepts cannot be right or wrong, but traditional
terms can be defined in a better or less good way. Note that the
original question by Ian Joo used the traditional term "passive",
assuming that we know what it means (not necessarily assuming that
"passive" is a concept that is useful for typological
generalizations).<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Good definitions of traditional terms are (i) clear (i.e. based
on clear concepts) and (ii) largely coextensive with legacy
usage. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Traditional terms can rarely be defined clearly in such a way
that the definition covers ALL legacy cases. So while the Chinese
<i>bèi </i>
construction is similar to the Swahili Passive, I don’t see that
we can have a definition of <i>passive</i> that covers both.
Maybe even the English Passive is not included. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>By contrast, I don’t see why Papuan Malay <i>dapa-pukul</i>
shouldn’t be included. Isn’t <i>dapa-</i> a passive prefix? (And
similarly Riau Indonesian <i>kena-pukul</i>.)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 22.03.21 um 12:25 schrieb David Gil:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Martin,</p>
<p>As you've pointed out on numerous occasions, comparative
concepts can't be right or wrong, they can only be more or less
useful as tools for typological generalizations. Still, with
that in mind, I suspect that a comparative concept of "passive"
that subsumes, say, the rather garden-variety constructions in
(1) and (2), rather than excluding them on the grounds that the
verb lacks an affix, as you would have things, will turn out to
be more useful for typologists (not to mention conforming more
closely with common every-day usage).</p>
<p>(1) Riau Indonesian<br>
<i>Yusuf kena pukul sama Musa</i><br>
Yusuf PASS hit together Musa<br>
'Yusuf got hit by Musa'<br>
[cf. "active" <i>Musa pukul Yusuf</i>]</p>
<p>(1) Papuan Malay<br>
<i>Yusuf dapa pukul dari Musa</i><br>
Yusuf PASS hit from Musa<br>
'Yusuf got hit by Musa'<br>
[cf. "active" <i>Musa pukul Yusuf</i>]</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 22/03/2021 08:24, Martin
Haspelmath wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Yes, the definition that I use presupposes an understanding of
"verb-coded" and "adposition", but this is typical of
definitions: They work only if their component parts are defined
or understood clearly. <br>
<br>
So is <i>bèi</i> a verb-coding element in (1) and (4)? It could
be said to be "verb-phrase coding" (as David notes), but the
notion of "verb phrase" is not cross-linguistically applicable
in an obvious way. So I would restrict "passive" (as a
comparative concept) to forms where the verb has an affix
(because this is the only situation in which the two sister
constructions are clearly asymmetric). Now is <i>bèi</i> a
prefix in (1)? This would be possible only if <i>bèi</i> in (1)
and <i>bèi</i> in (4) are two different elements – and it seems
that we do not want to say this.<br>
<br>
Chao rightly asks: "In what sense is the English passive
construction verb-coded?" The English Passive includes an
Auxiliary, but there is no good cross-linguistic definition of
"auxiliary", so we don't want to say that auxiliaries can be
criterial for passives. Some English verbs have what looks like
a passive affix (e.g. <i>-en</i> in <i>tak-en</i>), but the
English Passive construction does not clearly fall under the
definition that I gave. (A good illustration of "passive" is
Siewierska's first example in her WALS chapter, from Swahili: <i>chakula
kilipik-<b>wa</b> (na Hamisi)</i> 'The food was cooked by
Hamisi').<br>
<br>
There is a tradition of appealing to "tests for subject
properties" (going back to Keenan 1976), but this seems
appropriate only at the language-particular level. Since these
tests are different in different languages, this approach does
not work well in a comparative context.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 21.03.21 um 20:28 schrieb David
Gil:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Chao, Martin,<br>
<br>
I agree with Chao's characterization of Mandarin (1) as
being a passive under most or all reasonable definitions
thereof; however, I fail to see why (4) cannot also be
considered to be a passive. In (4), <i>bèi</i> is not
flagging <i>jĭngchá</i> 'police' but rather is marking the
entire phrase <i>jĭngchá tuō-zŏu-le</i>
— it may thus be analyzed as an instance
of "verb(-phrase) coding". <br>
<br>
Many Southeast Asian languages have paradigms which
correspond to that in (1) - (4) except that, in the
counterpart of (4), the agent phrase follows rather than
precedes the verb. Such constructions are commonly referred
to as "passives", or, more specifically, as "periphrastic"
or sometimes "adversative passives". Moreover, in such
languages, the counterpart of Mandarin <i>bèi</i> is
presumably also applying to the verb-plus-agent phrase as a
whole. So the only obvious difference between such
constructions and Mandarin (4) is that of word order. (I
say "*obvious* difference" because it may be the case that
syntactic tests will show that <i>jĭngchá</i> in (4) has
more subject properties than do the usual Southeast Asian
postverbal agent phrases, in which case the prototypicality
of (4) as a passive would decrease accordingly. But has
anybody shown this to be the case?)</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 21/03/2021 19:31, Chao Li
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Dear Martin,</span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>It perhaps depends on what you mean
by “verb-coded”. For example, in what sense is the
English passive construction verb-coded? In a Mandarin
sentence like (1), the meaning is passive and
crucially it is coded with the passive morpheme <i>bèi</i>,
which historically could be used as a verb that means
“to suffer”. The single argument in (1) can also
correspond to the Patient argument of an active
sentence like (2) or (3). Moreover, it can be said
that the Agent argument gets suppressed in (1).
Therefore, it appears reasonable to analyze (1) as a
passive construction both Chinese-internally and
crosslinguistically. As for whether a </span> <i>bèi</i><span>-construction like (4) can be
analyzed as a passive construction that fits the
definition, such an analysis is possible if one
accepts the (controversial and debatable) assumption
that <i>bèi</i> in (4) assumes not only its primary
role of being a passive marker but also an additional
role of being a preposition. </span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
<img src="cid:1785b429b5dcb971f161" alt="image.png" width="412" height="253">
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span> </span><span> </span><br>
</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Best regards,</span></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Chao</span></p>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at
10:07 AM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> According to my favourite definition of "passive
construction", these Mandarin examples are
(apparently) not passive constructions:<br>
<br>
<font size="-1">"A passive voice construction is a
verb-coded valency construction (i) whose sister
valency construction is transitive and not
verb-coded, and (ii) which has an S-argument
corresponding to the transitive P, and (iii) which
has a suppressed or oblique-flagged argument
corresponding to the transitive A".</font><br>
<br>
According to this definition, a passive construction
"marks both the agent and the verb" (unless the agent
is suppressed or otherwise absent). But Ian Joo's
question was probably about languages where the SAME
marker can occur on the verb and on the oblique agent.
This would be very unusual, because passive voice
markers are not expected to be similar to an oblique
agent flag.<br>
<br>
Now my question is: Are these Mandarin (and
Shanghainese) BEI/GEI-constructions passives? They
have traditionally been called passives, but since the
BEI element is obligatory, while the agent can be
omitted (<i>Zhangsan bei (Lisi) da le</i> 'Zhangsan
was hit (by Lisi)'), it cannot be a preposition or
case prefix. At least that would seem to follow from
the definition of "affix/adposition". So I think this
construction doesn't fall under a rigorous definition
of "passive construction". (Rather, it is a sui
generis construction.)<br>
<br>
Some authors might say that it is a "noncanonical
passive" (cf. Legate, Julie Anne. 2021. Noncanonical
passives: A typology of voices in an impoverished
Universal Grammar. <i>Annual Review of Linguistics</i>
7(1). doi:<a href="https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459" target="_blank">10.1146/annurev-linguistics-031920-114459</a>),
but there does not seem to be a clear limit to this
vague notion (is every topicalization construction a
noncanonical passive?). I do not know of a fully
explicit definition of "passive construction" that
clearly includes the Mandarin BEI constructions.<br>
<span title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1146%2Fannurev-linguistics-031920-114459&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Noncanonical%20passives%3A%20A%20typology%20of%20voices%20in%20an%20impoverished%20Universal%20Grammar&rft.jtitle=Annual%20Review%20of%20Linguistics&rft.volume=7&rft.issue=1&rft.aufirst=Julie%20Anne&rft.aulast=Legate&rft.au=Julie%20Anne%20Legate&rft.date=2021"></span><br>
Best wishes,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 28.02.21 um 19:46 schrieb bingfu Lu:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">A
better example in Mandarin may be:</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span>Zhangsan
bei-Lisi gei-da-le.</span><br>
<span>Zhangsan
PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF</span><br>
<span>`Zhangsan
was hit by Lisi.'</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">'bei'
is etymologically related to 'suffer' while‘给’
to 'give'.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">In
fact, </div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><span>Zhangsan
bei-(Lisi) da-le.</span></span><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">can also change to</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span>Zhangsan
gei-(Lisi） da-le.</span></span><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><span><span><br>
</span></span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a">Furthermore, in
Shanghainese, the PASS is a morpheme
homophonic to the morpheme for 'give'.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#26282a"><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr">regards,<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Bingfu
Lu</div>
<div dir="ltr">Beijing
Language University</div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_5319021477283321762gmail-m_-5660392288109528183gmail-m_-9220910343995609513gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyahoo_quoted_4775567649">
<div>
<div> On Sunday, February 28, 2021, 10:26:36 PM
GMT+8, JOO, Ian [Student] <a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk" target="_blank"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a>
wrote: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id="gmail-m_5319021477283321762gmail-m_-5660392288109528183gmail-m_-9220910343995609513gmail-m_-7067846232154779631ydp9b85d7ebyiv9747170334">
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
I wonder if you are aware of any
language whose passive construction
marks both the agent and the verb.<br>
For example, in Mandarin, the agent
receives the passive marker <em>bei.</em><br>
<br>
(1) Zhangsan bei-Lisi da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
<br>
When the agent is omitted, the verb
receives <em>bei</em>.<br>
<br>
(2) Zhangsan bei-da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit.'<br>
<br>
But, in some occasions, both the agent
and the verb receive <em>bei</em>:<br>
<br>
(3) Zhangsan bei-Lisi bei-da-le.<br>
Zhangsan PASS-Lisi PASS-hit-PRF<br>
`Zhangsan was hit by Lisi.'<br>
<br>
Are you aware of any other language
where a construction like (3) is
possible?<br>
The only one I am aware of at the
moment is Vietnamese.<br>
I would greatly appreciate any help.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
Regards,
<div>Ian</div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Guillaume Jacques</div><div><br></div><div>Directeur de recherches<br>CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO - EHESS<br><a href="http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques" target="_blank">http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques</a></div><div><div><a href="http://panchr.hypotheses.org/" target="_blank">http://panchr.hypotheses.org/</a></div></div></div></div>
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