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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Dear all,<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">I feel I ought to change the subject line, but won't do that since the substance of my question is related to and inspired by the one discussed in this thread.<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">To shortly comment on Christian's original query, I'd like to point out that there are actually not that many Uralic languages with a rich local case systems - instead,
they are found in Hungarian and the Finnic branch of the family (including Finnish and Estonian), but barely in the seven less know branches of Uralic (certain dialects of Permic languages being the exception). Even then, only "external" and "vicinal" (Gilles'
superlocative and apudlocative) series exist, whereas the "internal" local cases can be regarded as unmarked default local cases. Instead, languages of Caucasus are those that
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"">display
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">truly
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"">rich local case</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">
systems, as far as they can be regarded as case systems (Comrie & Polinsky 1998).<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">My own question today: While many "Super", "superlocative" or 'top' cases can indeed be found in Uralic and in the languages
of Caucasus (Ossetic (Indo-European) included), are there any other corners of the world with such specialized cases? In other words, I'm looking for morphological case distinctions as seen in the following Finnish word pairs:<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">lipasto-ssa</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">
'in the drawer' vs. <i>lipasto-lla</i> 'on the drawer'<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">tule-ssa</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">
'in the fire' vs. <i>tule-lla</i> 'on the fire'<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">mere-ssä</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">
'in the sea' vs. <i>mere-llä</i> 'on the sea'<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">I'd be happy to locate similar morphological distinctions outside the Uralic family and the Causasus region.<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Best regards,<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Jussi<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>Frá:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> fyrir hönd Gilles Authier <gilles.authier@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> miðvikudagur, 24. mars 2021 16:40<br>
<b>Til:</b> Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de><br>
<b>Afrit:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Efni:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] terminological question about local cases/adpositions</font>
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<p>For "languages whose adpositions only code the spatial region, leaving the local relation to other components of the clause"<br>
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<p>I use</p>
non-specific: locative<br>
top: superlocative<br>
bottom: sublocative<br>
interior: inlocative<br>
proximity: adlocative<br>
vicinity: apudlocative<br>
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<div>which are shorter and still transparent.</div>
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<div>Best</div>
<div>Gilles</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 3:31 PM Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p>May I briefly interrupt the epistemological debate with a much simpler question?</p>
<p>Several languages (notably, many Uralic languages) display a rich local case system which neatly distinguishes between spatial regions ('top', 'bottom', 'interior', exterior' etc.) and local relations ('rest, motion to/from/through') to these or to the object
irrespective of its regions. The descriptive tradition for such languages has responded to the structure of such paradigms by reflecting it in a set of Latinate terms of the following structure:</p>
adessive, allative, ablative<br>
inessive, illative, elative<br>
superessive, superlative (never mind the homonymy of this term), delative<br>
<p>and many others. It does not matter at the moment to what extent the case systems or the terminology are systematic and complete. My concern is the distinction between rest (essive) and motion (lative). Such a distinction is made in local cases or adpositions
of many languages. Contrasting with these, there are (possibly equally many or more) languages whose adpositions only code the spatial region, leaving the local relation to other components of the clause. My question is how we can apply the terminological
pattern mentioned to these languages in order to get appropriate grammatical category labels and abbreviations for the morphological glosses of such adpositions. Here are some such concepts and corresponding ponderous terms:<br>
</p>
non-specific: essive/lative<br>
top: superessive/-lative<br>
bottom: subessive/-lative<br>
interior: inessive/illative<br>
proximity: adessive/allative<br>
vicinity: apudessive/-lative<br>
and others.
<p>These terms have at least two disadvantages:</p>
<ul>
<li>They are long-winded.</li><li>The 'lative' member of each pair has commonly been applied specifically to the direction to(wards) the reference object, not generally to a motion relation.<br>
</li></ul>
<p>The first pair in the list is often simply called 'locative'. But what about the others? Are there shorter, but equally systematic terms in use anywhere?</p>
<p>Some may prefer just using English words like 'on', 'under', 'beside' to designate and gloss such adpositions or cases. Such a solution is fraught with problems, too:</p>
<ol>
<li>These are no technical terms in a grammatical description, so they don't imply a grammatical category and paradigm. (We can say such things as 'it is marked by the ablative', but hardly 'it is marked by "from"'.)<br>
</li><li>Some of these English prepositions (being SAE prepositions) do imply a local relation, like English
<i>in</i> is incompatible with ablative directionality (must be <i>out of</i>).</li><li>Yet other spatial regions like vicinity are not matched by an English preposition (<i>by</i> is too ambiguous, other candidates are too specific).<br>
</li></ol>
<p>Ignoring problems 2 and 3 would therefore evoke mistaken ideas in the recipient of the description.</p>
<p>Grateful for any useful hints,<br>
</p>
<p>Christian<br>
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<div>-- <br>
<p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
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