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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Dear all,<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">I, too, only now realize that the same goes for Finnish and Saami on the Uralic side: Finnish
<i>kerta</i> (nom.) 'Mal, fois, раз' and its genitive <i>kerran</i> as well as North Saami
<i>gearddi</i> (genitive of <i>geardi</i> id.) have the same sense 'zumal'. They are often used with all-purpose temporal-causative conjunctions like Finnish
<i>kun</i>, but also independently as true conjunctions.<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Minä lähden, (kun) kerta/kerran sinä tulit niin aikaisin.<o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
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<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Mun vuolggán, (go) gearddi don bohtet nu árrat.<o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">'Ich werde gehen, zumal du so früh gekommen bist.<o:p>'
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</o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">'I'll be leaving, as you came so early.'<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Best regards,<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Jussi<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>Frá:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> fyrir hönd Michael Daniel <misha.daniel@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> fimmtudagur, 1. apríl 2021 15:05<br>
<b>Til:</b> Hartmut Haberland <hartmut@ruc.dk><br>
<b>Afrit:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Efni:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Numeral 'one' and 'as soon as'</font>
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<div dir="ltr">In fact, I have a somewhat similar intuition about the use of Russian раз 'time', even though it is always hard to put things like that into translation equivalents. It is not simply cause. As Timur Maisak correctly indicated to me - in a private
branch of discussion of this topic - that it can be characterized as conditional just as well as causal, and thi use has been termed causal-conditional in some works on Russian.
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<div>Michael</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">чт, 1 апр. 2021 г. в 14:37, Hartmut Haberland <<a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>>:<br>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Lieber Martin,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">According to my intuition,
<i>zumal</i> means ‘<u>especially</u> since’, i.e. ‘I would have left early anyway, but now I have another, additional reason for it.’<u><u></u><u></u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Wiktionary gives these translations: the more so as, especially. d’autant plus que, sans compter que. tanto più che, anche perché, senza contare
che, specialmente per il fatto che. bovenal, temeer.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Hartmut</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span><u></u></span></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>På vegne af </b>Martin Haspelmath<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 1. april 2021 11:40<br>
<b>Til:</b> lingtyp@</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Numeral 'one' and 'as soon as'<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">And it is only in this exchange that I realize that German
<i>Mal</i> 'time (in the sense of the French <i>fois</i>)' can be used in a somewhat similar way, in the combination
<i>zumal</i> (= <i>zu Mal</i>):<br>
<br>
<i>Ich werde gehen, zumal du so früh gekommen bist.</i><br>
'I'll be leaving, as you came so early.'<br>
<br>
Maybe German also borrowed this from French in one way or another. (But note that
<i>zumal</i> only means '(in as much) as', i.e. it only has a causal sense.)<br>
<br>
(There are so many similarities among European languages that seem to be due to borrowing in one way or another...)<br>
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Best,<br>
Martin<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">Am 01.04.21 um 09:39 schrieb Michael Daniel:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">Dear all, <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">only in this exchange I realized that the Russian <i>раз</i> 'time' (in the sense of the French 'fois'), is used in a syntactically similar construction but functionally different construction as introducing cause complement clauses:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><i>Раз ты пришел так рано, я пойду</i>.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">As you came so early, I'll be leaving. (Lit. 'Time <a href="http://you.sg" target="_blank">
you.sg</a> come.Pst so early, I leave.Prs)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">Note that no numeral is used in these constructions, unlike what the original query was looking for.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">But is the French "Une fois que" not somewhat similar to Russian in this respect, in that it is not (only) used in the sense "as soon as" but also to introduce subordinate clauses of cause? (And maybe English, too, once we're on this).
In fact, it would be good to check whether the Russian construction is not a 19th century pattern copy from French.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">Michael<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">чт, 1 апр. 2021 г. в 08:33, Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <<a href="mailto:olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu" target="_blank">olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu</a>>:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Sorry for not having been clearer in my previous email.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Yes, English 'once' is used in this way :) <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">I did not mention English and other European languages because in Mandarin and the other Hmong-Mien languages I mentioned before, the second clause appears with another linker (lit.
<i>on(c)e</i>........'(<i>and</i>) <i>then</i>'). Accordingly, these languages show some sort of correlative construction. Based on the languages of the sample, this usage of 'on(c)e' in a correlative construction is not common cross-linguistically. It seems
that Hmong-Mien languages have copied this strategy with native material from Mandarin. This is some sort of 'pattern replication'. I was expecting to receive more answers concerned with languages spoken in this area in order to see if these languages have
also copied this pattern from Mandarin.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Thank you in advance.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 8:37 PM Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <<a href="mailto:olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu" target="_blank">olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">I hope this message finds you well.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">As I was consulting various sources, it seems that the numeral 'one' in the expression of 'as soon as' is not common cross-linguistically. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">In my sample, this is attested in Standard Mandarin (i.e. <i>yī), </i>Xong (Hmong-Mien), and Iu Mien (Hmong-Mien). Are you aware of any other languages that express 'as soon as' in a similar way?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Thank you very much in advance.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"AR CENA",serif; color:rgb(33,33,33)">Jesús Olguín Martínez</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span>Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics</span><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><i><span>University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)</span></i><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span><a href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez</span></a></span><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"AR CENA",serif; color:rgb(33,33,33)">Jesús Olguín Martínez</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"AR CENA",serif; color:rgb(33,33,33)">Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics</span><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"AR CENA",serif; color:rgb(33,33,33)">University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)</span></i><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"AR CENA",serif; color:rgb(33,33,33)"><a href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez</span></a></span><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Martin Haspelmath<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>D-04103 Leipzig<u></u><u></u></pre>
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