<div dir="ltr">Warumungu (and a number of other Australian languages) have second position clusters of pronominals and tense/aspect/modality morphs which are cliticised but which can bear stress. Some are analysable as separate morphemes, some are portmanteau.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 7:36 AM Larry M. HYMAN <<a href="mailto:hyman@berkeley.edu">hyman@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Maybe I'm missing something, but other than the non-trivial problem of deciding what is vs. isn't a clitic (vs. affix vs. full word), I thought the request was for phonologically-leaning multi-morph forms that are not prefixes or suffixes--not whether they form a prosodic word or clitic-word constituent.<div><br></div><div>To fully explain the Luganda example, =byange 'my (class 8)' actually is analyzed as =bi-a-nge (cl.8-associative-1sg). I cited only unambiguously motivated morph-breaks, but if you want to analyze le, la and les as having more than one morph (which I don't find attractive), then we could further analyze =byange as =bi-a-ng-e, since there are other possessives that end in the final formative -e: -by-aff-e 'our', -by-a-mmw-e 'your pl.', -by-a-bw-e 'their', and bye 'his/her' could be bi-a-e-e, although the finall -e isn't needed. (A slight problem, though, with byo 'your sg.', definitely no -e).</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 1:14 PM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
But what exactly is "a clitic word"?<br>
<br>
In Luganda, it may be uncontroversial that there are two words in <i>e-bi-déé=by-a-nge</i>
'my cups', because <i>by-aa-</i> also occurs as a proclitic
elsewhere.<br>
<br>
But in Quechua <i>wasi-bi-chu-ga-n</i> 'is not at home', how do we
know that there is a "clitic word" <i>-chu</i> and a "clitic word"
<i>-ga-n</i>, rather than three clitics <i>=chu</i>, <i>=ga</i>,
and <i>=n</i>? Is this because <i>-ga-</i> looks like a "verb
stem", and we have the idea that verbs are "inflected"?<br>
<br>
Since Schiering et al. (2010) (doi:10.1017/S0022226710000216), it
has been widely known that "p-(rosodic) word" is not a generally
applicable notion, which casts even more doubt on the notion of
"clitic word".<br>
<br>
But if we consider items that are traditionally considered "clitics"
in European languages, it's really easy to find complex ones among
the bound person forms, e.g. French <i>l-e/l-a/l-es</i>, Italian <i>m-i/t-i/s-i</i>,
Greek <i>to-n/ti-n/tu-s/t-u/ti-s</i>, Bulgarian <i>n-i/v-i/g-i</i>.<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 31.03.21 um 05:56 schrieb Larry M.
HYMAN:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Florian,
<div><br>
I was expecting lots of offers over the past 16 hours, but
none! In Bantu this is quite usual because clitics often
combine noun class agreement with whatever the marker
is--often fused. E.g. in Luganda the locative enclitic =kô 'on
it, a little' consists of class 17 ku- and -o. The
"connective" (associative, genitive) prefixes the noun class
agreement to /-a/ (ebitabo byaa=Walúsimbi 'Walusimbi's
books', from class 8 /bi-a/), and so forth. Several of the
possessive pronoun enclitics are bisyllabic, e.g. class 8
byange = /bi-a-nge/ 'my', as in e-bi-déé =by-a-nge 'my cups'
(where the enclitic saves the length of the root -déé
'bell(s)' from undergoing final vowel shortening.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are lots of such examples in the following paper:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hyman, Larry M. & Francis X. Katamba. 1990. Final vowel
shortening in Luganda. <i>Studies in African Linguistics </i>21.1-59,
available here:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="https://journals.flvc.org/sal/article/view/107438/102758" target="_blank">https://journals.flvc.org/sal/article/view/107438/102758</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best, Larry</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 4:36
AM <<a href="mailto:florian.matter@isw.unibe.ch" target="_blank">florian.matter@isw.unibe.ch</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px">
Dear all,</div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px">
<br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px">
I am looking for examples of morphologically complex
clitics — i.e., g-words that a) do not form their own
p-words and b) consist of multiple morphemes. Below are
some of the few examples I have found. In (1-2), it is an
encliticized copula which carries person inflection. In
(3), the verb complex consists of a finite verb, a
converb, and an auxiliary, each their own g-word. Both the
finite verb and the auxiliary are inflected for first
person and therefore morphologically complex.</div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier">(1) Trió (Cariban)</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> əmamina-nə=pəə<b>=w-a-e</b>
</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier">
play-INF=occ.with=1Sa-be-NPST.CERT </font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> 'I am playing'
(Meira 1999: 180)</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"><br>
</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier">(2) Ecuadorian
Quechua</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> paj mana
wasi-bi=t͡ʃu<b>=ga-n</b> </font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> 3PRO NEG
house-LOC=NEG=be-3 </font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> 'S/he is not
at home.' (Muysken 2010: 197)</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"><br>
</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier">(3)
Nangikurrunggurr (Southern Daly)</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> jawul
karicinmade
<b>ŋebem=</b>wuɹic<b>=ŋiɹim</b> catma </font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> spear bent
1SG.S.bash.PRS=fix=1SG.S.sit.PRS straight </font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> 'I'm sitting
straightening this bent spear.' (Reid 2003: 114)</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px">I am grateful for any further examples
of such patterns, or references to literature on
morphologically complex clitics.</div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px">Best,</div>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px">Florian</div>
<br>
<div id="gmail-m_1008147644274870418gmail-m_-775286196667452699gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_sign_1617103015902721792">
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">_____________________________</span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Universität
Bern</span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Institut
für Sprachwissenschaft</span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Florian
Matter </span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;min-height:12px"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Länggassstrasse
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+41 31 631 37 54</span></p>
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<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><u><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif;color:rgb(4,51,255)"><a href="mailto:florian.matter@isw.unibe.ch" style="color:rgb(0,106,227)" target="_blank">florian.matter@isw.unibe.ch</a></span></u><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif"></span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><u><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif;color:rgb(4,51,255)"><a href="http://www.isw.unibe.ch/" style="color:rgb(0,106,227)" target="_blank">http://www.isw.unibe.ch</a></span></u></p>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics
& Executive Director, France-Berkeley Fund</div>
<div>Department of Linguistics, University of
California, Berkeley</div>
<div><a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br>
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<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
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<a href="https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522" target="_blank">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a></pre>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Executive Director, France-Berkeley Fund</div><div>Department of Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley</div><div><a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">Jane Simpson<br>Private e-mail</div>