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<p>Dear all, <br>
</p>
<p>The equivalent expression in Armenian : <br>
</p>
<p>Eastern Armenian <br>
</p>
<p>mi hat (1 + generic classificator), meaning "once" but different
from mi angam (numeral 1 + fois/mal/раз)</p>
<p>or <br>
</p>
<p>Western Armenian (colloquial)</p>
<p>mey më (allomorphe of mek, 1 + indefinite article), meaning
"once" in the same sens as mek angam (numeral 1 + fois/mal/раз)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>is used, along with its literal meaning, to say "before", "just"
<br>
</p>
<p>EA <br>
</p>
<p>mi hat ker, heto k-xos-es <br>
</p>
<p>WA</p>
<p>mey më ker, heto k-xos-is</p>
<p>1 CLASS eat.IMP after FUT-speak-3SG<br>
</p>
<p>just eat / for now, eat, you'll speak later <br>
</p>
(but also in other contexts with the meaning "if only", "if you
dare", если вдруг", especially in conditional constructions)<br>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The meaning here can also be "as soon as" but it will be a
contextual meaning in an appropriate context, it seems to me that
the proper meaning of the expression is rather the succession (it
has to be done in order to...) which is closer to the initial
meaning "once", but could explain a semantic path toward "as soon
as"? <br>
Best</p>
<p>Anaïd<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-signature">
<p><font color="gray"><font size="1pt">Anaid Donabedian-Demopoulos
Professeure des Universites, Institut National des Langues
et Civilisations Orientales (<a href="www.inalco.fr">www.inalco.fr</a>)
<br>
SeDyL, Structure et Dynamique des Langues UMR8202 CNRS -
INALCO - IRD/UMR135 (<a href="http://sedyl.vjf.cnrs.fr/">http://sedyl.vjf.cnrs.fr/</a>)<br>
Directrice-adjointe du Labex EFL <a
href="http://www.labex-efl.org/">http://www.labex-efl.org/</a>)
<br>
Co-directrice de la revue Faits de Langues (Brill) <a
href="http://fdl.univ-lemans.fr/">http://fdl.univ-lemans.fr/</a>
<br>
<a href="http://a.donabedian.free.fr">Page personnelle</a> <br>
<a
href="http://www.inalco.fr/enseignant-chercheur/anaid-donabedian-demopoulos
">Publications</a> <br>
<a href="http://www.vjf.cnrs.fr/sedyl/Donabédian">Page
chercheur</a></font></font></p>
<font color="gray">
<p><a href="fdl.univ-lemans.fr"><img
src="cid:part8.A098C01E.387B9015@inalco.fr"></a></p>
</font></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 01/04/2021 à 16:35, Jussi Ylikoski a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:HE1PR0502MB38846161C2C7C965973B20E6897B9@HE1PR0502MB3884.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;">P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}</style>
<div style="font-family: Tahoma, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size:
10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI">Dear all,<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI">I, too, only now realize that the same goes for
Finnish and Saami on the Uralic side: Finnish
<i>kerta</i> (nom.) 'Mal, fois, раз' and its genitive <i>kerran</i>
as well as North Saami
<i>gearddi</i> (genitive of <i>geardi</i> id.) have the
same sense 'zumal'. They are often used with all-purpose
temporal-causative conjunctions like Finnish
<i>kun</i>, but also independently as true conjunctions.<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<i><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI">Minä lähden, (kun) kerta/kerran sinä tulit niin
aikaisin.<o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<i><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI">Mun vuolggán, (go) gearddi don bohtet nu árrat.<o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI">'Ich werde gehen, zumal du so früh gekommen bist.<o:p>'
<br>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI">'I'll be leaving, as you came so early.'<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI">Best regards,<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;line-height:115%;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", serif">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI"
lang="FI">Jussi<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,sans-serif;
font-size:10pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>Frá:</b>
Lingtyp <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
fyrir hönd Michael Daniel <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com"><misha.daniel@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> fimmtudagur, 1. apríl 2021 15:05<br>
<b>Til:</b> Hartmut Haberland <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk"><hartmut@ruc.dk></a><br>
<b>Afrit:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Efni:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Numeral 'one' and 'as soon as'</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">In fact, I have a somewhat similar intuition
about the use of Russian раз 'time', even though it is
always hard to put things like that into translation
equivalents. It is not simply cause. As Timur Maisak
correctly indicated to me - in a private branch of
discussion of this topic - that it can be characterized as
conditional just as well as causal, and thi use has been
termed causal-conditional in some works on Russian.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Michael</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">чт, 1 апр. 2021 г. в
14:37, Hartmut Haberland <<a
href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" moz-do-not-send="true">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex; border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);
padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="DA">
<div class="x_gmail-m_-9149829155613395471WordSection1">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Lieber Martin,</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">According to my
intuition,
<i>zumal</i> means ‘<u>especially</u> since’, i.e.
‘I would have left early anyway, but now I have
another, additional reason for it.’</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Wiktionary
gives these translations: the more so as,
especially. d’autant plus que, sans compter que.
tanto più che, anche perché, senza contare che,
specialmente per il fatto che. bovenal, temeer.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Hartmut</span><span
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><span
style="text-decoration:none"> </span></span></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none; border-bottom:none;
border-left:none; border-top:1pt solid
rgb(225,225,225); padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Fra:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">
Lingtyp <<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>På vegne af </b>Martin Haspelmath<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 1. april 2021 11:40<br>
<b>Til:</b> lingtyp@</span><span
style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a
href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Numeral 'one' and
'as soon as'</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">And
it is only in this exchange that I realize that
German
<i>Mal</i> 'time (in the sense of the French <i>fois</i>)'
can be used in a somewhat similar way, in the
combination
<i>zumal</i> (= <i>zu Mal</i>):<br>
<br>
<i>Ich werde gehen, zumal du so früh gekommen bist.</i><br>
'I'll be leaving, as you came so early.'<br>
<br>
Maybe German also borrowed this from French in one
way or another. (But note that
<i>zumal</i> only means '(in as much) as', i.e. it
only has a causal sense.)<br>
<br>
(There are so many similarities among European
languages that seem to be due to borrowing in one
way or another...)<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin</p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Am 01.04.21 um 09:39 schrieb
Michael Daniel:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt; margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Dear all, </p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">only in this exchange I
realized that the Russian <i>раз</i> 'time'
(in the sense of the French 'fois'), is used
in a syntactically similar construction but
functionally different construction as
introducing cause complement clauses:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><i>Раз ты пришел так
рано, я пойду</i>.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">As you came so early,
I'll be leaving. (Lit. 'Time <a
href="http://you.sg" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
you.sg</a> come.Pst so early, I leave.Prs)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Note that no numeral is
used in these constructions, unlike what the
original query was looking for.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">But is the French "Une
fois que" not somewhat similar to Russian in
this respect, in that it is not (only) used in
the sense "as soon as" but also to
introduce subordinate clauses of cause? (And
maybe English, too, once we're on this). In
fact, it would be good to check whether the
Russian construction is not a 19th century
pattern copy from French.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Michael</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">чт, 1 апр. 2021 г. в
08:33, Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <<a
href="mailto:olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu</a>>:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;
border-right:none; border-bottom:none;
border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);
padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left:4.8pt;
margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Dear
all,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Sorry for not having been clearer in
my previous email.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Yes, English 'once' is used in this
way :) </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">I did not mention English and other
European
languages because in
Mandarin and the other
Hmong-Mien languages I
mentioned before, the
second clause appears
with another linker
(lit.
<i>on(c)e</i>........'(<i>and</i>)
<i>then</i>').
Accordingly, these
languages show some sort
of correlative
construction. Based on
the languages of the
sample, this usage of
'on(c)e' in a
correlative construction
is not common
cross-linguistically. It
seems that Hmong-Mien
languages have copied
this strategy with
native material from
Mandarin. This is some
sort of 'pattern
replication'. I was
expecting to receive
more answers concerned
with languages spoken in
this area in order to
see if these languages
have also copied this
pattern from Mandarin.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Thank you in advance.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Best,</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">On Wed, Mar 31, 2021
at 8:37 PM Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez
<<a
href="mailto:olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;
border-right:none; border-bottom:none;
border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);
padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left:4.8pt;
margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Dear
all,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">I
hope this message finds you
well.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">As
I was consulting various
sources, it seems that the
numeral 'one' in the expression
of 'as soon as' is not common
cross-linguistically. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">In
my sample, this is attested in
Standard Mandarin (i.e. <i>yī), </i>Xong
(Hmong-Mien), and Iu Mien
(Hmong-Mien). Are you aware of
any other languages that express
'as soon as' in a similar way?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Thank
you very much in advance.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Best,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:"AR
CENA",serif;
color:rgb(33,33,33)">Jesús
Olguín Martínez</span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(33,33,33)"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span>Ph.D.
Candidate, Dept. of
Linguistics</span><span
style="color:rgb(33,33,33)"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><i><span>University
of California, Santa
Barbara (UCSB)</span></i><span
style="color:rgb(33,33,33)"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span><a
href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez</span></a></span><span
style="color:rgb(33,33,33)"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:"AR CENA",serif;
color:rgb(33,33,33)">Jesús Olguín
Martínez</span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
color:rgb(33,33,33)"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:"AR CENA",serif;
color:rgb(33,33,33)">Ph.D. Candidate,
Dept. of Linguistics</span><span
style="color:rgb(33,33,33)"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:"AR
CENA",serif;
color:rgb(33,33,33)">University of
California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)</span></i><span
style="color:rgb(33,33,33)"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;
font-family:"AR CENA",serif;
color:rgb(33,33,33)"><a
href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez</span></a></span><span
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>Martin Haspelmath</pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology</pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6</pre>
<pre>D-04103 Leipzig</pre>
<pre><a href="https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a></pre>
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