<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">To add another rather obvious SAE example, Portuguese <i>uma vez que</i> and Spanish <i>una vez que</i> also perform a correlative function. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 6:07 AM Jess Tauber <<a href="mailto:tetrahedralpt@gmail.com">tetrahedralpt@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Yahgan u:koali 'one' and ku:ka 'same' (colon marks tenseness of preceding vowel) may be etymologically related. ku:k(h)aitakun 'as soon as' may contain ku:ka, kaia 'soon' (though it might also be analyzed as containing haita, the irregular present tense version of haina 'go, walk', plus -kun, which is the present participle suffix. There just isn't enough material recorded from when the language had a healthy number of fluent speakers to know for sure.<div><br></div><div>Jess Tauber</div></div><div id="gmail-m_-7002267649886052486DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
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<div>
<p>Dear all,<br>
</p>
<p>While Martin talks of borrowing of pattern (i.e. calquing), I
have just recently become aware of a possible and rather strange,
even bizarre, borrowing of matter: English <i>once</i> (in its
use as 'as soon as') into Hebrew, [wans]. At first I thought this
was an instance of Hebrew/English code-switching in (mostly
academic) discussions; however, I have recently heard it a couple
of times in Hebrew-language conversations which didn't seem to be
likely venues for code-switching. It's certainly not common
usage; I wonder whether other speakers of Hebrew following this
exchange have noticed this.</p>
<p>For what it's worth, the usual Hebrew expression for 'as soon as'
is <i>be=regaʕ še= </i>(in=moment REL), which, unlike the common
"European substrate" languages for modern Hebrew, doesn't have a
'one' in it.</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 01/04/2021 12:39, Martin Haspelmath
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
And it is only in this exchange that I realize that German <i>Mal</i>
'time (in the sense of the French <i>fois</i>)' can be used in a
somewhat similar way, in the combination <i>zumal</i> (= <i>zu
Mal</i>):<br>
<br>
<i>Ich werde gehen, zumal du so früh gekommen bist.</i><br>
'I'll be leaving, as you came so early.'<br>
<br>
Maybe German also borrowed this from French in one way or another.
(But note that <i>zumal</i> only means '(in as much) as', i.e. it
only has a causal sense.)<br>
<br>
(There are so many similarities among European languages that seem
to be due to borrowing in one way or another...)<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 01.04.21 um 09:39 schrieb Michael
Daniel:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>only in this exchange I realized that the Russian <i>раз</i>
'time' (in the sense of the French 'fois'), is used in a
syntactically similar construction but functionally
different construction as introducing cause complement
clauses:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i>Раз ты пришел так рано, я пойду</i>.</div>
<div>As you came so early, I'll be leaving. (Lit. 'Time <a href="http://you.sg" target="_blank">you.sg</a>
come.Pst so early, I leave.Prs)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Note that no numeral is used in these constructions,
unlike what the original query was looking for.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But is the French "Une fois que" not somewhat similar to
Russian in this respect, in that it is not (only) used in
the sense "as soon as" but also to introduce subordinate
clauses of cause? (And maybe English, too, once we're on
this). In fact, it would be good to check whether the
Russian construction is not a 19th century pattern copy from
French.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Michael</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">чт, 1 апр. 2021 г. в 08:33,
Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <<a href="mailto:olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu" target="_blank">olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">Dear
all,<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><span>
<div class="gmail_default">Sorry for not
having been clearer in my previous
email.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Yes, English
'once' is used in this way :) </div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
</span>
<div class="gmail_default">I did not
mention English and other European
languages because in Mandarin and the
other Hmong-Mien languages I mentioned
before, the second clause appears with
another linker (lit. <i>on(c)e</i>........'(<i>and</i>)
<i>then</i>'). Accordingly, these
languages show some sort of correlative
construction. Based on the languages of
the sample, this usage of 'on(c)e' in a
correlative construction is not common
cross-linguistically. It seems that
Hmong-Mien languages have copied this
strategy with native material from
Mandarin. This is some sort of 'pattern
replication'. I was expecting to receive
more answers concerned with languages
spoken in this area in order to see if
these languages have also copied this
pattern from Mandarin.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Thank you in
advance.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Best,</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at
8:37 PM Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <<a href="mailto:olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu" target="_blank">olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">Dear
all,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">I
hope this message finds you well.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">As
I was consulting various sources, it seems that
the numeral 'one' in the expression of 'as soon
as' is not common cross-linguistically. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">In
my sample, this is attested in Standard Mandarin
(i.e. <i>yī), </i>Xong (Hmong-Mien), and <span>Iu Mien
(Hmong-Mien). Are you aware of any other
languages that express 'as soon as' in a
similar way?</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><span>Thank you
very much in advance.</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(33,33,33);margin:0px"><font face="AR CENA"><span style="font-size:14.6667px">Jesús Olguín
Martínez</span></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:11pt"><font face="AR
CENA">Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of
Linguistics</font></span></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:11pt"><font face="AR
CENA"><i>University of California,
Santa Barbara (UCSB)</i></font></span></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:11pt"><font face="AR
CENA"><a href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez</a></font></span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(33,33,33);margin:0px"><font face="AR CENA"><span style="font-size:14.6667px">Jesús
Olguín Martínez</span></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:11pt"><font face="AR CENA">Ph.D.
Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics</font></span></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:11pt"><font face="AR CENA"><i>University
of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)</i></font></span></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:11pt"><font face="AR CENA"><a href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez</a></font></span></font></div>
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<pre cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
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D-04103 Leipzig
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<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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