<div dir="ltr">Dear All,<div>with reference to Martin's email of 22.03.'21 which opened this thread I would like to quote the following para (from my article in the <i>Oxf. Res.Encycl.of Ling.</i> , OUP (updated May 2019) on 'Morphol. Units. Word' doi: <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/acrefore/9780199384655.013.543">http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/acrefore/9780199384655.013.543</a>: <<Edith Morawcsik (LINGTYP 11.11.’17) rightly states that «we can work with any definition of "word" in crosslinguistic research and then see if that definition is useful or not ―i.e., whether it does or does not yield typological correlate». This is a sound pragmatic approach: any definition is ‘per se’ arbitrary and conventional, neither true nor false but operational or useless, i.e., either it applies or does not apply to the phenomena under scrutiny (see in the ‘wordhood’ debate Gil’s similar statement (15.11.’17): «My understanding of comparative concepts is that they don't "exist" or "fail to exist", but rather they turn out to be "more useful" or "less useful" to us ».>></div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Paolo</div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">prof. dr. Paolo Ramat<div><div> Università di Pavia (retired)</div><div>Istituto Universitario Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</div><div>Accademia dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br><div>'Academia Europaea'</div><div>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</div></div></div><div>piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</div><div>##39 0382 27027</div><div>347 044 98 44</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno dom 4 apr 2021 alle ore 14:41 Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
Many thanks for pointing out the relevance of this old paper, Randy!<br>
<br>
Heath nicely contrasts his own functional and particularist approach
with Postal's categorial universalist position.<br>
<br>
Postal (1977) says that he "takes it as a major goal of grammatical
theory to make available a restricted set of universal rules which
... play a role in the grammars of individual languages. This is the
opposite of the position represented by the slogan <i>describe each
language in its own terms</i>."
<br>
<br>
By contrast, Heath says that he favours an "approach that
presupposes painstaking formal/functional analysis of particular
languages and is thus the opposite of the position represented by
the slogan <i>describe each language in universal terms</i>"
(1978: 89).<br>
<br>
Heath's paper is thus an interesting precursor to Dryer's seminal
(1997) paper on the non-universality of syntactic roles
("grammatical relations").<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>Am 04.04.21 um 04:24 schrieb Randy J.
LaPolla:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Hi All,
<div>I am just catching up on this list after some time,
but in reference to the debate about passive and the question
generally about how to compare constructions across languages,
I’d jjust like to mention that Jeffery Heath once again was way
ahead of the curve in a 1978 article in BLS arguing for
functional universals:</div>
<div><a href="https://escholarship.org/uc/item/2259z70z" target="_blank">https://escholarship.org/uc/item/2259z70z</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Although couched in an argument about Relation
Grammar (remember that?) he goes into a discussion of how to
compare passives and antipassives across languages, and has some
interesting things to say.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Randy<br>
<div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 24 Mar 2021, at 6:51 PM, Martin Haspelmath
<<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div><span style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Thanks, Bill – I agree with all
this. Indeed, the choice of terminology is not
straightforward and involves many considerations. We
don't want our technical terms to be polysemous, but we
tend to balk at too many new terms (I've had reviewers
commenting negatively on my submissions because of my
neologisms).</span><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">But I wanted to mention that I
recently formulated a universal that requires the
definition of "passive" that I proposed earlier (in
terms of verb coding):</span><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">"Universal 13</span><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">If a passive alternation is
sensitive to givenness, then the passive alternant tends
to be used when the original A is not given information
and/or the original P is not new information."
(Haspelmath 2021: 155)</span><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<a href="https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/ling-2020-0252/html" style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/ling-2020-0252/html</a><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">If "passive" is defined
functionally (as in Givón 1994), then this tendency
needs to be formulated quite differently. I'm not saying
that this is impossible, and I'm not even quite sure
that the universal is true. But what I like about
Universal 13 is that it is simply a special instance of
a far more general universal (the role-reference
association universal, Haspelmath 2021: 125), which also
subsumes differential object marking and many other
generalizations.</span><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Best,</span><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<span style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Martin</span><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">Am 23.03.21 um 19:56 schrieb
William Croft:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Dear all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div> I'm afraid I will extend this
discussion a bit longer...The fundamental issue is
that in defining comparative concepts, one has to
draw sharp boundaries on gradual diachronic
processes that lead to synchronic continua of
typological diversity. And then one has to choose
terms for comparative concepts that in many cases
were devised for non-typological theories based on a
small, genetically and geographically narrow set of
languages (Western European, East Asian, Middle
Eastern, South Asian, to name some prominent
grammatical traditions). There is no ideal solution,
even among those who fully agree with the above
statements.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> To elaborate a little bit: Martin's
intuition about "passive", and the intuitions of
many about defining a "construction", is that there
should be dedicated morphosyntax for the function of
the "construction". There was already an objection
to this intuition in this thread, saying that
multifunctional "passive" morphemes should not be
excluded. More generally, a dedicated construction
is a late stage in the constructionalization
process. The first step is recruiting another
construction, that is, recruiting a morphosyntactic
form used for some related function. Then the
recruited construction is gradually adapted to its
new function, diverging from the form used for the
original function.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> Recruitment is the basic strategy
that starts the process towards a "dedicated"
construction for a particular function. It's a
gradual process. Any choice to delimit a comparative
concept beyond the initial recruitment is arbitrary.
The definition of a "passive" construction (in my
terms) in terms of any form used to express the
function is actually the least arbitrary choice --
except that functions (conceptual space) also form a
continuum, so dividing that continuum is also
arbitrary. But it's necessary for practical reasons,
so we can talk about the phenomena we're studying.
This is what language is about.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> And language is also about using
shared terms in a community. A typological theory
of, say, grammatical voice could invent entirely new
terms because the "legacy terms" are not
typological. But it's not like non-typological
theories have a single agreed-upon definition of
"passive", or "subject", or pretty much any other
important theoretical concept. So recruiting the
terms for a typological theory and defining them
differently is not abnormal, though if it's too
different then a new term may be better. (We may
disagree in particular cases.) And in some cases
there is continuity between the functional analysis
proposed by non-typologists and the functional
comparative concept that is useful for typology.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> I think there's another reason that
typologists broadened traditional terms to the
construction, rather than just the strategy for the
construction typical of Western European languages.
The point was to find (implicational etc.)
universals that hold across all languages. So
excluding many languages that don't use a particular
strategy from the category in question is not
helpful for that purpose.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> I don't expect we'll all agree on the
choice of terms. For "relative clause construction",
I have restricted the definition to modification by
action concepts; so modification by property
concepts is excluded. There are also theoretical
considerations. For instance, I believe that
grammatical voice is about the interplay between the
relative salience/topicality of participants and
their semantic (force-dynamic) interactions in an
event. From that point of view, constructions in the
functional domain of voice should be defined in
terms of relative topicality of participants and by
their force-dynamic interactions in the event.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> I just added the (draft) Glossary to
the (draft) chapters of "Morphosyntax" that I have
posted on my webpage (<a href="http://www.unm.edu/~wcroft/WACpubs.html" target="_blank">http://www.unm.edu/~wcroft/WACpubs.html</a>),
to give an idea of how I have constructed
comparative concepts for many constructions.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bill</div>
<br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:1508.22px">
<div id="gmail-m_7287069001521198611divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span> </span>Lingtyp<span> </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><span> </span>on behalf of
Bohnemeyer, Juergen<span> </span><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank"><jb77@buffalo.edu></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Tuesday,
March 23, 2021 8:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span>Martin
Haspelmath<span> </span><a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank"><martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span> </span><a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><span> </span><a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
[Lingtyp] Double-marked passive</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div> <span> </span>[EXTERNAL]<br>
<br>
Martin, I don’t want to extend this discussion
beyond its best-by date, but the example you
cite...<br>
<br>
> So the reason I would opt for the
form-based definition of "passive" (as opposed
to the function-based definitions favoured by
Bohnemeyer and Givón-Croft) is that the term
"passive" is generally used for a strategy, in
actual usage. It would be very odd to say that a
sentence with a fronted object and focused
subject like German "Den Mann hat der LÖWE
gesehen" (= 'The man was seen by the LION') is a
passive construction.<br>
<br>
… would not meet the definition of ‘demotion’ I
was assuming in my definition of ‘passive':<br>
<br>
> A passive is a construction that combines
with a causative description and whose semantic
impact is the demotion of the causer while
retaining the causative meaning.<br>
<br>
I would define ‘demotion’ such that the
definition presupposes a default assignment of
the highest-ranked semantic role to the subject
or pivot (the highest-ranked syntactic argument
position). Demotion is then an operation that
blocks this default assignment. In your example,
the highest-ranked role is the experiencer, and
it is assigned to the syntactic subject, so
there’s no passive construction involved by my
definition.<br>
<br>
Via this definition of ‘demotion’, which
involves a mix of semantic and syntactic
properties (it is a form-meaning mapping
property), the definition of ‘passive’ acquires
enough syntactic anchoring to clearly target
‘strategies’, as opposed to mere meanings, while
still avoiding the apparent pitfalls of
including a purely formal property such as
verb-coding in the definition.<br>
<br>
Best — Juergen<br>
<br>
--<br>
Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo<br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY
14260<br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127<br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email:<span> </span><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a><br>
Web:<span> </span><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a><br>
<br>
Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to
schedule a call at any time. I will in addition
hold Tu/Th 4-5pm open specifically for remote
office hours.<br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The
Light Gets In<br>
(Leonard Cohen)<br>
<br>
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Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
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<pre cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a href="https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522" target="_blank">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a></pre>
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