<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Adam,</div><div><br></div><div>I am responding for several reasons. First, I personally did not find your expanding (escalating) the discussion to be particularly useful in identifying the kinds of phenomena that Florian had clearly delineated (as can be seen from the several LINGTYP responses, as well as private ones he received). To say that essentially everything "leans" is not helpful at all, as if we cannot find independent phonological criteria for elements that have clitic-like behavior. If a framework prefers to reanalyze these (or even outlaw them), this also seems besides the point which was to identify phenomena at the descriptive level, where there is already enough to disentangle. I want to thank Florian for his inquiry, which we can take as an invitation to identify examples where morphologically complex clitics appear to exist and determine what their properties are.</div><div><br></div><div>For example, you hypothesize that the Luganda example might (instead) be treated as a string of clitics. However, considering the total facts of Luganda one would better recognize that =byange 'my' begins with the same noun class 8 agreement prefix bi- found in other word classes, e.g. (e-)bi-tabo 'books', bi-rúngi 'good', bi-biri 'two', bi-rî 'those (far)' etc.). I also indicated a phonological criterion for clitichood: the preservation of final vowel length of the preceding syllable: (e-)bi-d<u>éé</u> =byange 'my bells' vs. (e)bi-d<u>e</u> bi-biri 'two bells'. Of course the total picture is more complex than this, as Francis and I reported in excruciating detail (Hyman & Katamba 1990, "Final vowel shortening in Luganda", <i>Studies in African Linguistics</i>). But there is good reason to assert that class 8 =by-ange 'my', =by-o 'your sg.' and =by-e 'his/her' are (i) single clitics and (ii) morphologically complex. Besides preserving preceding length, they cannot stand alone. Thus, compare these with the corresponding self-standing independent possessive pronouns: e-by-áange 'mine', e-bí-by-ô 'yours sg.', and e-bí-by-ê 'his/hers', which are fuller and have different tone properties.</div><div><br></div><div>Best, Larry</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 4:20 AM Adam James Ross Tallman <<a href="mailto:ajrtallman@utexas.edu" target="_blank">ajrtallman@utexas.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">Dear Florian <i>inter alia,</i><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">It's never really clear to me whether with questions like these, we are asking:<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">1. Are there descriptions which posit such things (i.e. use a terminological framework that allow them to "exist" and then describe them as "existing")?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">2. Is there a thing like this in the language (regardless of the terminological framework because all of the relevant notions have obvious cross-linguistically applicable diagnostics / criteria)?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">For 1, note that for some authors (like Stephen Anderson, circa 2005) morphologically complex clitics seem to be logically impossible. Clitics are either syntactic elements that integrate into (post-lexical) phonological structure (simple/phonological clitics) or else they are morphological elements themselves that operate over phrases. Since they are supposed to be realizational elements themselves, it's hard to even imagine a morphologically complex clitic being something that's allowed. <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><i><b>Is Anderson making an empirical claim about the absence of morphologically complex clitics cross-linguistically?</b></i> I don't think so. They are just ruled out on terminological / theoretical grounds. I assume the Luganda case would just be analyzed as a string of clitics - where their place in the grammar would be (as post-lexical phonological integration or post-lexical /phrase level placement or both) determined, would then depend on what you meant by "normal syntax". <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">In terms of 'phonologically leaning' ... according to which phonological process (if any)? You can always vacuously phonologically lean into an utterance/intonational phrase. In much prosodic phonology, an element can be categorized,tautologically as phonologically leaning just because it surfaces at all (it would integrate into an intonational phrase (that need only be identified by pause breaks), or an empirically vacuous layer of the prosodic hierarchy). So for some linguists, this just isn't a meaningful empirical question at all. Not that it's not interesting, we just have to know a lot more about how one goes about establishing the bridging principles between notions like g-word and p-word and the actual language data.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">If the question is - <i>can </i>such structural classifications exist. Well, yeah. You just have to choose definitions of '=' and '-' such that a morphologically complex clitic falls out. For instance, in Chacobo there's this punctual morpheme <i>=/-tápi. </i>It allows some variable ordering with "suffixes" and "clitics" in the verb complex - it could be categorized as either an affix or clitic depending on what criteria you use. When the verb complex occurs with an associated motion morpheme, <i>=/-tapi </i>happens to have a fixed position after the AM morpheme and it happens to modify the motion action. *SO*, just choose a definition of g-word that makes <i>-tapi </i>an affix and the AM morphemes simple clitics. And voilà, you have a morphologically complex clitic. Is this an example of a morphologically complex clitic? If you want it to be, yes.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">Thus, it's hard to know how 2 is being addressed in any of the discussions, because '=' and '-' are not defined. So implicitly people are responding to 1. Which is fine, it's always informative to know how much terminological variation there is in the field, but it's harder to interpret what it all means.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">best,<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">Adam<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:14 PM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
But what exactly is "a clitic word"?<br>
<br>
In Luganda, it may be uncontroversial that there are two words in <i>e-bi-déé=by-a-nge</i>
'my cups', because <i>by-aa-</i> also occurs as a proclitic
elsewhere.<br>
<br>
But in Quechua <i>wasi-bi-chu-ga-n</i> 'is not at home', how do we
know that there is a "clitic word" <i>-chu</i> and a "clitic word"
<i>-ga-n</i>, rather than three clitics <i>=chu</i>, <i>=ga</i>,
and <i>=n</i>? Is this because <i>-ga-</i> looks like a "verb
stem", and we have the idea that verbs are "inflected"?<br>
<br>
Since Schiering et al. (2010) (doi:10.1017/S0022226710000216), it
has been widely known that "p-(rosodic) word" is not a generally
applicable notion, which casts even more doubt on the notion of
"clitic word".<br>
<br>
But if we consider items that are traditionally considered "clitics"
in European languages, it's really easy to find complex ones among
the bound person forms, e.g. French <i>l-e/l-a/l-es</i>, Italian <i>m-i/t-i/s-i</i>,
Greek <i>to-n/ti-n/tu-s/t-u/ti-s</i>, Bulgarian <i>n-i/v-i/g-i</i>.<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 31.03.21 um 05:56 schrieb Larry M.
HYMAN:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Florian,
<div><br>
I was expecting lots of offers over the past 16 hours, but
none! In Bantu this is quite usual because clitics often
combine noun class agreement with whatever the marker
is--often fused. E.g. in Luganda the locative enclitic =kô 'on
it, a little' consists of class 17 ku- and -o. The
"connective" (associative, genitive) prefixes the noun class
agreement to /-a/ (ebitabo byaa=Walúsimbi 'Walusimbi's
books', from class 8 /bi-a/), and so forth. Several of the
possessive pronoun enclitics are bisyllabic, e.g. class 8
byange = /bi-a-nge/ 'my', as in e-bi-déé =by-a-nge 'my cups'
(where the enclitic saves the length of the root -déé
'bell(s)' from undergoing final vowel shortening.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are lots of such examples in the following paper:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hyman, Larry M. & Francis X. Katamba. 1990. Final vowel
shortening in Luganda. <i>Studies in African Linguistics </i>21.1-59,
available here:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="https://journals.flvc.org/sal/article/view/107438/102758" target="_blank">https://journals.flvc.org/sal/article/view/107438/102758</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best, Larry</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 4:36
AM <<a href="mailto:florian.matter@isw.unibe.ch" target="_blank">florian.matter@isw.unibe.ch</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px">
Dear all,</div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px">
<br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px">
I am looking for examples of morphologically complex
clitics — i.e., g-words that a) do not form their own
p-words and b) consist of multiple morphemes. Below are
some of the few examples I have found. In (1-2), it is an
encliticized copula which carries person inflection. In
(3), the verb complex consists of a finite verb, a
converb, and an auxiliary, each their own g-word. Both the
finite verb and the auxiliary are inflected for first
person and therefore morphologically complex.</div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier">(1) Trió (Cariban)</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> əmamina-nə=pəə<b>=w-a-e</b>
</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier">
play-INF=occ.with=1Sa-be-NPST.CERT </font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> 'I am playing'
(Meira 1999: 180)</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"><br>
</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier">(2) Ecuadorian
Quechua</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> paj mana
wasi-bi=t͡ʃu<b>=ga-n</b> </font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> 3PRO NEG
house-LOC=NEG=be-3 </font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> 'S/he is not
at home.' (Muysken 2010: 197)</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"><br>
</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier">(3)
Nangikurrunggurr (Southern Daly)</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> jawul
karicinmade
<b>ŋebem=</b>wuɹic<b>=ŋiɹim</b> catma </font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> spear bent
1SG.S.bash.PRS=fix=1SG.S.sit.PRS straight </font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><font face="Courier"> 'I'm sitting
straightening this bent spear.' (Reid 2003: 114)</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px">I am grateful for any further examples
of such patterns, or references to literature on
morphologically complex clitics.</div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px">Best,</div>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px">Florian</div>
<br>
<div id="gmail-m_5896882298090184291gmail-m_-4955183987815887303gmail-m_-113115319059413323gmail-m_-8453726521381901939gmail-m_1524622962134441887bloop_sign_1617103015902721792">
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">_____________________________</span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Universität
Bern</span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Institut
für Sprachwissenschaft</span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Florian
Matter </span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;min-height:12px"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Länggassstrasse
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<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Tel.
+41 31 631 37 54</span></p>
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<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><u><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif;color:rgb(4,51,255)"><a href="mailto:florian.matter@isw.unibe.ch" style="color:rgb(0,106,227)" target="_blank">florian.matter@isw.unibe.ch</a></span></u><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif"></span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><u><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif;color:rgb(4,51,255)"><a href="http://www.isw.unibe.ch/" style="color:rgb(0,106,227)" target="_blank">http://www.isw.unibe.ch</a></span></u></p>
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<div>Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics
& Executive Director, France-Berkeley Fund</div>
<div>Department of Linguistics, University of
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<pre cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">Adam J.R. Tallman</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">Post-doctoral Researcher <br></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">Friedrich Schiller Universität<br></font></div><div><font face="times new roman, serif">Department of English Studies<br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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