<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Dr Gil,</div><div><br></div><div>I apologise if this has been brought up already, but 至 in Classical Chinese may mean both 'come to/arrive at' and 'utmost'.</div><div><br></div><div>Sincerely,</div><div>Ryan Lai</div><div>Grad student</div><div>University of California, Santa Barbara</div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 4:45 PM <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Query: Elided Intensification (David Gil)<br>
2. Re: Query: Elided Intensification (Naomi Peck)<br>
3. Re: Query: Elided Intensification (Bohnemeyer, Juergen)<br>
4. Re: Query: Elided Intensification (Ilana Mushin)<br>
5. Re: Query: Elided Intensification (David Gil)<br>
6. Re: Query: Elided Intensification (Jess Tauber)<br>
7. Re: Query: Elided Intensification (Bill Palmer)<br>
8. Re: Query: Elided Intensification (David Gil)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 22:26:01 +0300<br>
From: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] Query: Elided Intensification<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:abf0b3d5-cd82-18b7-ee42-ffbac7da195f@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">abf0b3d5-cd82-18b7-ee42-ffbac7da195f@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
<br>
I'm interested in exploring the properties and geographical distribution <br>
of a novel (well, to me at least) construction type which might be <br>
termed "Elided Intensification'.I'll explain with an example.In Papuan <br>
Malay, property-denoting and some other words may be intensified by the <br>
addition of /sampe/, a word whose other, more basic functions, include <br>
'arrive' and 'until', e.g.<br>
<br>
(1) Enak sampe<br>
<br>
nice SAMPE<br>
<br>
'Very nice.'<br>
<br>
My informal "interpretation" of this construction is that it involves, <br>
or at least originated in, some kind of understood expression such as <br>
"nice arriving (at complete fulfillment)", or "nice until <br>
(completion)".As Papuan Malay is largely head-initial, it kind of feels <br>
like something is missing after the word /sampe/.(In Malay/Indonesian, <br>
this construction seems to be restricted geographically to the north <br>
coast of New Guinea and possibly also Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is <br>
absent.)<br>
<br>
So far, I am familiar with two other potential cases of Elided <br>
Intensification.The first is from Ambel, an Austronesian language spoken <br>
in the Raja Ampat archipelago of the northwest coast of New Guinea, in a <br>
region where Papuan Malay is also spoken.As described by Arnold <br>
(2018:145, pers comm), /aya/ 'until' is used in a construction closely <br>
resembling that in (1):<br>
<br>
(2) Anlómo aya<br>
<br>
bleed.3SG.INAN AYA<br>
<br>
‘It bled a lot.’<br>
<br>
Arnold, Laura. 2018./A Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian Language of <br>
West New Guinea/. PhD Dissertation.Edinburgh: University of Edinburgh.<br>
<br>
The second example, which I just came across, and which prompted this <br>
query, is Australian English.In the Wikipedia entry for Australian <br>
English, in a paragraph which deals with the infensification of <br>
adjectives, the following rather tantalizing passage occurs:<br>
<br>
"In informal speech, incomplete comparisons are sometimes used, such as <br>
"sweet as" (as in "That car is sweet as.")."<br>
<br>
So here it's comparative 'as' rather than 'arrive'/'until' that comes <br>
after the word being intensified, but still, all these cases seem to <br>
involve intensification with the elision of some kind of argument <br>
associated with the property word and denoting an extreme extent of the <br>
property in question.<br>
<br>
My questions:<br>
<br>
1.Could speakers of Australian English please confirm the existence of <br>
this construction, and comment on it.Does it occur in other varieties of <br>
English?(It was certainly completely new to me!)<br>
<br>
2.Is anybody familiar with possible cases of Elided Intensification in <br>
other languages, in Australia, New Guinea or elsewhere?On the flimsy <br>
basis of three examples, it looks like an Australian / New Guinea areal <br>
feature: is this the case?For the Australia / New Guinea region I'd also <br>
appreciate negative data, of the form "no, my language definitely <br>
doesn't do this".<br>
<br>
3.Any further comments and suggestions ...<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
-- <br>
David Gil<br>
<br>
Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 19:54:06 +0000<br>
From: Naomi Peck <<a href="mailto:naomi.peck@linguistik.uni-freiburg.de" target="_blank">naomi.peck@linguistik.uni-freiburg.de</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>, <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Query: Elided Intensification<br>
Message-ID: <c-796c6-kndl4w0p-tsbzgy=<a href="mailto:1f2gnjg@2.gethop.com" target="_blank">1f2gnjg@2.gethop.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi David,<br>
<br>
Re: your first question, this construction is very much present in Australian English. It has been common for over 10 years and possibly also in New Zealand English, as suggested by a favourite series of mine produced by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc</a>).<br>
<br>
I'd also add that my intuition is that the example you gave from AusE is perhaps more 'complete' than the explanation suggests. You could certainly ask someone "sweet as what?" but the response would likely be "I don't know, just sweet as!".<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Naomi<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc</a> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc</a> [Beached Az: The Seagull. Ep 1, Series 1<br>
After waking up on the shores of a New Zealand beach, the Whale encounters a Seagull who has trouble comprehending why whales can't eat chips.](<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc</a>) <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc</a><br>
<br>
On April 11, 2021 at 19:28 GMT, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
I'm interested in exploring the properties and geographical distribution of a novel (well, to me at least) construction type which might be termed "Elided Intensification'. I'll explain with an example. In Papuan Malay, property-denoting and some other words may be intensified by the addition of sampe, a word whose other, more basic functions, include 'arrive' and 'until', e.g.<br>
<br>
(1) Enak sampe<br>
<br>
nice SAMPE<br>
<br>
'Very nice.'<br>
<br>
My informal "interpretation" of this construction is that it involves, or at least originated in, some kind of understood expression such as "nice arriving (at complete fulfillment)", or "nice until (completion)". As Papuan Malay is largely head-initial, it kind of feels like something is missing after the word sampe. (In Malay/Indonesian, this construction seems to be restricted geographically to the north coast of New Guinea and possibly also Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is absent.)<br>
<br>
So far, I am familiar with two other potential cases of Elided Intensification. The first is from Ambel, an Austronesian language spoken in the Raja Ampat archipelago of the northwest coast of New Guinea, in a region where Papuan Malay is also spoken. As described by Arnold (2018:145, pers comm), aya 'until' is used in a construction closely resembling that in (1):<br>
<br>
(2) Anlómo aya<br>
<br>
bleed.3SG.INAN AYA<br>
<br>
‘It bled a lot.’<br>
<br>
Arnold, Laura. 2018. A Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian Language of West New Guinea. PhD Dissertation. Edinburgh: University of Edinburgh.<br>
<br>
The second example, which I just came across, and which prompted this query, is Australian English. In the Wikipedia entry for Australian English, in a paragraph which deals with the infensification of adjectives, the following rather tantalizing passage occurs:<br>
<br>
"In informal speech, incomplete comparisons are sometimes used, such as "sweet as" (as in "That car is sweet as.")."<br>
<br>
So here it's comparative 'as' rather than 'arrive'/'until' that comes after the word being intensified, but still, all these cases seem to involve intensification with the elision of some kind of argument associated with the property word and denoting an extreme extent of the property in question.<br>
<br>
My questions:<br>
<br>
1. Could speakers of Australian English please confirm the existence of this construction, and comment on it. Does it occur in other varieties of English? (It was certainly completely new to me!)<br>
<br>
2. Is anybody familiar with possible cases of Elided Intensification in other languages, in Australia, New Guinea or elsewhere? On the flimsy basis of three examples, it looks like an Australian / New Guinea areal feature: is this the case? For the Australia / New Guinea region I'd also appreciate negative data, of the form "no, my language definitely doesn't do this".<br>
<br>
3. Any further comments and suggestions ...<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
-- David Gil Senior Scientist (Associate) Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713 Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
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<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 20:11:54 +0000<br>
From: "Bohnemeyer, Juergen" <<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>><br>
To: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Query: Elided Intensification<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:7168CB2A-63FC-4EF2-9024-92FDD8B7C721@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">7168CB2A-63FC-4EF2-9024-92FDD8B7C721@buffalo.edu</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Dear David — Heine & Kuteva (2004 [2002]: 46) have examples from a bunch of language for ‘arrive at’, ‘reach’ > ‘until’ (temporal). Uses of _hasta_ ‘until’, ‘as far as’ as a scalar focus particle ‘even’ are commonplace in Mexican Spanish and probably other (non-European) dialects of Spanish as well. Made up example:<br>
<br>
Hasta frijol comi-ó<br>
until beans eat-3SG.PRT<br>
‘(S)he/it ate even BEANS’<br>
<br>
It doesn’t seem far-fetched to go from a scalar focus particle to an intensifier, although I can’t cite an independent example of that pathway. <br>
<br>
Best — Juergen<br>
<br>
Heine, B. & T. Kuteva. (2004 [2002]). World lexicon of grammaticalization. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.<br>
<br>
> On Apr 11, 2021, at 3:26 PM, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Dear all,<br>
> <br>
> I'm interested in exploring the properties and geographical distribution of a novel (well, to me at least) construction type which might be termed "Elided Intensification'. I'll explain with an example. In Papuan Malay, property-denoting and some other words may be intensified by the addition of sampe, a word whose other, more basic functions, include 'arrive' and 'until', e.g.<br>
> <br>
> (1) Enak sampe<br>
> nice SAMPE<br>
> 'Very nice.'<br>
> <br>
> My informal "interpretation" of this construction is that it involves, or at least originated in, some kind of understood expression such as "nice arriving (at complete fulfillment)", or "nice until (completion)". As Papuan Malay is largely head-initial, it kind of feels like something is missing after the word sampe. (In Malay/Indonesian, this construction seems to be restricted geographically to the north coast of New Guinea and possibly also Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is absent.)<br>
> <br>
> So far, I am familiar with two other potential cases of Elided Intensification. The first is from Ambel, an Austronesian language spoken in the Raja Ampat archipelago of the northwest coast of New Guinea, in a region where Papuan Malay is also spoken. As described by Arnold (2018:145, pers comm), aya 'until' is used in a construction closely resembling that in (1):<br>
> <br>
> (2) Anlómo aya <br>
> bleed.3SG.INAN AYA<br>
> ‘It bled a lot.’<br>
> <br>
> Arnold, Laura. 2018. A Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian Language of West New Guinea. PhD Dissertation. Edinburgh: University of Edinburgh.<br>
> <br>
> The second example, which I just came across, and which prompted this query, is Australian English. In the Wikipedia entry for Australian English, in a paragraph which deals with the infensification of adjectives, the following rather tantalizing passage occurs:<br>
> <br>
> "In informal speech, incomplete comparisons are sometimes used, such as "sweet as" (as in "That car is sweet as.")."<br>
> <br>
> So here it's comparative 'as' rather than 'arrive'/'until' that comes after the word being intensified, but still, all these cases seem to involve intensification with the elision of some kind of argument associated with the property word and denoting an extreme extent of the property in question.<br>
> <br>
> My questions:<br>
> <br>
> 1. Could speakers of Australian English please confirm the existence of this construction, and comment on it. Does it occur in other varieties of English? (It was certainly completely new to me!)<br>
> <br>
> 2. Is anybody familiar with possible cases of Elided Intensification in other languages, in Australia, New Guinea or elsewhere? On the flimsy basis of three examples, it looks like an Australian / New Guinea areal feature: is this the case? For the Australia / New Guinea region I'd also appreciate negative data, of the form "no, my language definitely doesn't do this".<br>
> <br>
> 3. Any further comments and suggestions ...<br>
> <br>
> Thanks,<br>
> <br>
> David<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> David Gil<br>
> <br>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
> <br>
> Email: <br>
> <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br>
> <br>
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
-- <br>
Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
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<br>
Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to schedule a call at any time. I will in addition hold Tu/Th 4-5pm open specifically for remote office hours.<br>
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There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) <br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 21:58:19 +0000<br>
From: Ilana Mushin <<a href="mailto:i.mushin@uq.edu.au" target="_blank">i.mushin@uq.edu.au</a>><br>
To: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Query: Elided Intensification<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:AFFDBDC0-0851-46E1-9151-D26AFAEE8AB3@uq.edu.au" target="_blank">AFFDBDC0-0851-46E1-9151-D26AFAEE8AB3@uq.edu.au</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
I can also confirm ‘sweet as’ in Australian English. I’ve seen it on advertising billboards. I think the construction ‘X as’ can be somewhat productive - eg I’ve certainly heard ‘dumb as’. There is a particular intonation that goes with the construction - the ‘as’ is lengthened and has a rise-fall contour so it doesn’t sound incomplete (this is impressionistic - someone may have a better idea of the prosody than me).<br>
<br>
Ilana<br>
<br>
Associate Professor Ilana Mushin<br>
Reader in Linguistics<br>
President, Australian Linguistic Society<br>
<br>
[/var/folders/lv/m77kqy0n4x1_rcd3pk0j2n900000gq/T/com.microsoft.Outlook/WebArchiveCopyPasteTempFiles/il.pb.png]Co-Editor, Interactional Linguistics (<a href="https://benjamins.com/catalog/il" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://benjamins.com/catalog/il</a>)<br>
<br>
School of Languages and Cultures<br>
University of Queensland<br>
St Lucia, QLD 4072.<br>
Ph: (07) 3365 6810<tel:(07)%203365%206810><br>
<br>
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<br>
On 12 Apr 2021, at 5:27 am, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
I'm interested in exploring the properties and geographical distribution of a novel (well, to me at least) construction type which might be termed "Elided Intensification'. I'll explain with an example. In Papuan Malay, property-denoting and some other words may be intensified by the addition of sampe, a word whose other, more basic functions, include 'arrive' and 'until', e.g.<br>
<br>
(1) Enak sampe<br>
nice SAMPE<br>
'Very nice.'<br>
<br>
My informal "interpretation" of this construction is that it involves, or at least originated in, some kind of understood expression such as "nice arriving (at complete fulfillment)", or "nice until (completion)". As Papuan Malay is largely head-initial, it kind of feels like something is missing after the word sampe. (In Malay/Indonesian, this construction seems to be restricted geographically to the north coast of New Guinea and possibly also Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is absent.)<br>
<br>
So far, I am familiar with two other potential cases of Elided Intensification. The first is from Ambel, an Austronesian language spoken in the Raja Ampat archipelago of the northwest coast of New Guinea, in a region where Papuan Malay is also spoken. As described by Arnold (2018:145, pers comm), aya 'until' is used in a construction closely resembling that in (1):<br>
<br>
(2) Anlómo aya<br>
bleed.3SG.INAN AYA<br>
‘It bled a lot.’<br>
<br>
Arnold, Laura. 2018. A Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian Language of West New Guinea. PhD Dissertation. Edinburgh: University of Edinburgh.<br>
<br>
The second example, which I just came across, and which prompted this query, is Australian English. In the Wikipedia entry for Australian English, in a paragraph which deals with the infensification of adjectives, the following rather tantalizing passage occurs:<br>
<br>
"In informal speech, incomplete comparisons are sometimes used, such as "sweet as" (as in "That car is sweet as.")."<br>
<br>
So here it's comparative 'as' rather than 'arrive'/'until' that comes after the word being intensified, but still, all these cases seem to involve intensification with the elision of some kind of argument associated with the property word and denoting an extreme extent of the property in question.<br>
<br>
My questions:<br>
<br>
1. Could speakers of Australian English please confirm the existence of this construction, and comment on it. Does it occur in other varieties of English? (It was certainly completely new to me!)<br>
<br>
2. Is anybody familiar with possible cases of Elided Intensification in other languages, in Australia, New Guinea or elsewhere? On the flimsy basis of three examples, it looks like an Australian / New Guinea areal feature: is this the case? For the Australia / New Guinea region I'd also appreciate negative data, of the form "no, my language definitely doesn't do this".<br>
<br>
3. Any further comments and suggestions ...<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
David Gil<br>
<br>
Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
<br>
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Message: 5<br>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 01:35:43 +0300<br>
From: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Query: Elided Intensification<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:ebdb3e3d-bbfd-5d83-34ed-cb6eec3c7929@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">ebdb3e3d-bbfd-5d83-34ed-cb6eec3c7929@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Thanks to those who have responded to my query so far, either to me <br>
personally or on the list.<br>
<br>
I'd like to clarify what I had in mind by "elided" or "incomplete". I <br>
am using these terms grammatically / semantically, to express the <br>
intuition that there's something missing after the intensifier, given <br>
that forms such as Papuan Malay /sampe/ and (Australian) English /as/ <br>
usually occur in construction with another, following expression (or <br>
"complement").<br>
<br>
I was not implying that the construction in question should "sound <br>
incomplete" (to use Ilana's words below). But it's interesting that she <br>
characterizes the Australian English /as/ construction as being <br>
associated with a "particular intonation", since the same is true also <br>
for the Papuan Malay construction with /sampe/. Though the specifics of <br>
the intonation contour seem to differ (in Papuan Malay, the peak of the <br>
contour falls on the preceding word, while the intensifier /sampe/ is <br>
associated with low pitch, sounding like an afterthought).<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/04/2021 00:58, Ilana Mushin wrote:<br>
> I can also confirm ‘sweet as’ in Australian English. I’ve seen it on <br>
> advertising billboards. I think the construction ‘X as’ can be <br>
> somewhat productive - eg I’ve certainly heard ‘dumb as’. There is a <br>
> particular intonation that goes with the construction - the ‘as’ is <br>
> lengthened and has a rise-fall contour so it doesn’t sound incomplete <br>
> (this is impressionistic - someone may have a better idea of the <br>
> prosody than me).<br>
><br>
> Ilana<br>
><br>
> Associate Professor Ilana Mushin<br>
><br>
> Reader in Linguistics<br>
><br>
> President, Australian Linguistic Society<br>
><br>
> /var/folders/lv/m77kqy0n4x1_rcd3pk0j2n900000gq/T/com.microsoft.Outlook/WebArchiveCopyPasteTempFiles/il.pb.pngCo-Editor, <br>
> /Interactional Linguistics/ (<a href="https://benjamins.com/catalog/il" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://benjamins.com/catalog/il</a> <br>
> <<a href="https://benjamins.com/catalog/il" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://benjamins.com/catalog/il</a>>)<br>
><br>
> School of Languages and Cultures<br>
><br>
> University of Queensland<br>
><br>
> St Lucia, QLD 4072.<br>
><br>
> Ph: (07) 3365 6810 <tel:(07)%203365%206810><br>
><br>
> CRICOS Provider No: 00025B<br>
><br>
> *I acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on whose land I live and <br>
> work. Their sovereignty was never ceded.*<br>
><br>
><br>
>> On 12 Apr 2021, at 5:27 am, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> <br>
>><br>
>> Dear all,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I'm interested in exploring the properties and geographical <br>
>> distribution of a novel (well, to me at least) construction type <br>
>> which might be termed "Elided Intensification'.I'll explain with an <br>
>> example.In Papuan Malay, property-denoting and some other words may <br>
>> be intensified by the addition of /sampe/, a word whose other, more <br>
>> basic functions, include 'arrive' and 'until', e.g.<br>
>><br>
>> (1) Enak sampe<br>
>><br>
>> nice SAMPE<br>
>><br>
>> 'Very nice.'<br>
>><br>
>> My informal "interpretation" of this construction is that it <br>
>> involves, or at least originated in, some kind of understood <br>
>> expression such as "nice arriving (at complete fulfillment)", or <br>
>> "nice until (completion)".As Papuan Malay is largely head-initial, it <br>
>> kind of feels like something is missing after the word /sampe/.(In <br>
>> Malay/Indonesian, this construction seems to be restricted <br>
>> geographically to the north coast of New Guinea and possibly also <br>
>> Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is absent.)<br>
>><br>
>> So far, I am familiar with two other potential cases of Elided <br>
>> Intensification.The first is from Ambel, an Austronesian language <br>
>> spoken in the Raja Ampat archipelago of the northwest coast of New <br>
>> Guinea, in a region where Papuan Malay is also spoken.As described by <br>
>> Arnold (2018:145, pers comm), /aya/ 'until' is used in a construction <br>
>> closely resembling that in (1):<br>
>><br>
>> (2) Anlómo aya<br>
>><br>
>> bleed.3SG.INAN AYA<br>
>><br>
>> ‘It bled a lot.’<br>
>><br>
>> Arnold, Laura. 2018./A Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian Language of <br>
>> West New Guinea/. PhD Dissertation.Edinburgh: University of Edinburgh.<br>
>><br>
>> The second example, which I just came across, and which prompted this <br>
>> query, is Australian English.In the Wikipedia entry for Australian <br>
>> English, in a paragraph which deals with the infensification of <br>
>> adjectives, the following rather tantalizing passage occurs:<br>
>><br>
>> "In informal speech, incomplete comparisons are sometimes used, such <br>
>> as "sweet as" (as in "That car is sweet as.")."<br>
>><br>
>> So here it's comparative 'as' rather than 'arrive'/'until' that comes <br>
>> after the word being intensified, but still, all these cases seem to <br>
>> involve intensification with the elision of some kind of argument <br>
>> associated with the property word and denoting an extreme extent of <br>
>> the property in question.<br>
>><br>
>> My questions:<br>
>><br>
>> 1.Could speakers of Australian English please confirm the existence <br>
>> of this construction, and comment on it.Does it occur in other <br>
>> varieties of English?(It was certainly completely new to me!)<br>
>><br>
>> 2.Is anybody familiar with possible cases of Elided Intensification <br>
>> in other languages, in Australia, New Guinea or elsewhere?On the <br>
>> flimsy basis of three examples, it looks like an Australian / New <br>
>> Guinea areal feature: is this the case?For the Australia / New Guinea <br>
>> region I'd also appreciate negative data, of the form "no, my <br>
>> language definitely doesn't do this".<br>
>><br>
>> 3.Any further comments and suggestions ...<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks,<br>
>><br>
>> David<br>
>><br>
>> -- <br>
>> David Gil<br>
>> <br>
>> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
>> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
>> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
>> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
>> <br>
>> <a href="mailto:Email%3Agil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">Email:gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br>
>> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
>> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Lingtyp mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
<br>
-- <br>
David Gil<br>
<br>
Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 19:17:15 -0400<br>
From: Jess Tauber <<a href="mailto:tetrahedralpt@gmail.com" target="_blank">tetrahedralpt@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Query: Elided Intensification<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CA+30tASz1cjiyGD=<a href="mailto:pMFB8QgaT0-Lz%2BSF0ei8RcP53usP7BTzSA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">pMFB8QgaT0-Lz+SF0ei8RcP53usP7BTzSA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
I remember an 'as good as' in one of the Harry Potter films (I think it was<br>
the Order of the Phoenix?). This is where Mrs. Wheasley says of Harry 'He's<br>
as good as' with reference to him not being her actual son.<br>
<br>
Jess Tauber<br>
<br>
On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 6:36 PM David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Thanks to those who have responded to my query so far, either to me<br>
> personally or on the list.<br>
><br>
> I'd like to clarify what I had in mind by "elided" or "incomplete". I am<br>
> using these terms grammatically / semantically, to express the intuition<br>
> that there's something missing after the intensifier, given that forms such<br>
> as Papuan Malay *sampe* and (Australian) English *as* usually occur in<br>
> construction with another, following expression (or "complement").<br>
><br>
> I was not implying that the construction in question should "sound<br>
> incomplete" (to use Ilana's words below). But it's interesting that she<br>
> characterizes the Australian English *as* construction as being<br>
> associated with a "particular intonation", since the same is true also for<br>
> the Papuan Malay construction with *sampe*. Though the specifics of the<br>
> intonation contour seem to differ (in Papuan Malay, the peak of the contour<br>
> falls on the preceding word, while the intensifier *sampe* is associated<br>
> with low pitch, sounding like an afterthought).<br>
><br>
> David<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 12/04/2021 00:58, Ilana Mushin wrote:<br>
><br>
> I can also confirm ‘sweet as’ in Australian English. I’ve seen it on<br>
> advertising billboards. I think the construction ‘X as’ can be somewhat<br>
> productive - eg I’ve certainly heard ‘dumb as’. There is a particular<br>
> intonation that goes with the construction - the ‘as’ is lengthened and<br>
> has a rise-fall contour so it doesn’t sound incomplete (this is<br>
> impressionistic - someone may have a better idea of the prosody than me).<br>
><br>
> Ilana<br>
><br>
> Associate Professor Ilana Mushin<br>
><br>
> Reader in Linguistics<br>
><br>
> President, Australian Linguistic Society<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> [image:<br>
> /var/folders/lv/m77kqy0n4x1_rcd3pk0j2n900000gq/T/com.microsoft.Outlook/WebArchiveCopyPasteTempFiles/il.pb.png]<br>
> Co-Editor, *Interactional Linguistics* (<a href="https://benjamins.com/catalog/il" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://benjamins.com/catalog/il</a>)<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> School of Languages and Cultures<br>
><br>
> University of Queensland<br>
><br>
> St Lucia, QLD 4072.<br>
><br>
> Ph: (07) 3365 6810 <(07)%203365%206810><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> CRICOS Provider No: 00025B<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> *I acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on whose land I live and<br>
> work. Their sovereignty was never ceded.*<br>
><br>
> On 12 Apr 2021, at 5:27 am, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> <br>
><br>
> Dear all,<br>
><br>
><br>
> I'm interested in exploring the properties and geographical distribution<br>
> of a novel (well, to me at least) construction type which might be termed<br>
> "Elided Intensification'. I'll explain with an example. In Papuan<br>
> Malay, property-denoting and some other words may be intensified by the<br>
> addition of *sampe*, a word whose other, more basic functions, include<br>
> 'arrive' and 'until', e.g.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> (1) Enak sampe<br>
><br>
> nice SAMPE<br>
><br>
> 'Very nice.'<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> My informal "interpretation" of this construction is that it involves, or<br>
> at least originated in, some kind of understood expression such as "nice<br>
> arriving (at complete fulfillment)", or "nice until (completion)". As<br>
> Papuan Malay is largely head-initial, it kind of feels like something is<br>
> missing after the word *sampe*. (In Malay/Indonesian, this construction<br>
> seems to be restricted geographically to the north coast of New Guinea and<br>
> possibly also Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is absent.)<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> So far, I am familiar with two other potential cases of Elided<br>
> Intensification. The first is from Ambel, an Austronesian language<br>
> spoken in the Raja Ampat archipelago of the northwest coast of New Guinea,<br>
> in a region where Papuan Malay is also spoken. As described by Arnold<br>
> (2018:145, pers comm), *aya* 'until' is used in a construction closely<br>
> resembling that in (1):<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> (2) Anlómo aya<br>
><br>
> bleed.3SG.INAN AYA<br>
><br>
> ‘It bled a lot.’<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Arnold, Laura. 2018. *A Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian Language of<br>
> West New Guinea*. PhD Dissertation. Edinburgh: University of Edinburgh.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> The second example, which I just came across, and which prompted this<br>
> query, is Australian English. In the Wikipedia entry for Australian<br>
> English, in a paragraph which deals with the infensification of adjectives,<br>
> the following rather tantalizing passage occurs:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> "In informal speech, incomplete comparisons are sometimes used, such as<br>
> "sweet as" (as in "That car is sweet as.")."<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> So here it's comparative 'as' rather than 'arrive'/'until' that comes<br>
> after the word being intensified, but still, all these cases seem to<br>
> involve intensification with the elision of some kind of argument<br>
> associated with the property word and denoting an extreme extent of the<br>
> property in question.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> My questions:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> 1. Could speakers of Australian English please confirm the existence of<br>
> this construction, and comment on it. Does it occur in other varieties<br>
> of English? (It was certainly completely new to me!)<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> 2. Is anybody familiar with possible cases of Elided Intensification in<br>
> other languages, in Australia, New Guinea or elsewhere? On the flimsy<br>
> basis of three examples, it looks like an Australian / New Guinea areal<br>
> feature: is this the case? For the Australia / New Guinea region I'd<br>
> also appreciate negative data, of the form "no, my language definitely<br>
> doesn't do this".<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> 3. Any further comments and suggestions ...<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Thanks,<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> David<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> David Gil<br>
><br>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
><br>
> Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br>
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Lingtyp mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> David Gil<br>
><br>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
><br>
> Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br>
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Lingtyp mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
><br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 23:32:07 +0000<br>
From: Bill Palmer <<a href="mailto:bill.palmer@newcastle.edu.au" target="_blank">bill.palmer@newcastle.edu.au</a>><br>
To: Jess Tauber <<a href="mailto:tetrahedralpt@gmail.com" target="_blank">tetrahedralpt@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>, "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Query: Elided Intensification<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:B0F6FAF0-4EEA-4D96-ADC0-FDD8FB35028E@newcastle.edu.au" target="_blank">B0F6FAF0-4EEA-4D96-ADC0-FDD8FB35028E@newcastle.edu.au</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Yep, the construction’s crazy as, but it’s widespread in Australian English. And as Ilana says, ‘as’ has terminal falling intonation.<br>
<br>
Bill<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone<br>
<br>
On 12 Apr 2021, at 9:18 am, Jess Tauber <<a href="mailto:tetrahedralpt@gmail.com" target="_blank">tetrahedralpt@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
I remember an 'as good as' in one of the Harry Potter films (I think it was the Order of the Phoenix?). This is where Mrs. Wheasley says of Harry 'He's as good as' with reference to him not being her actual son.<br>
<br>
Jess Tauber<br>
<br>
On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 6:36 PM David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Thanks to those who have responded to my query so far, either to me personally or on the list.<br>
<br>
I'd like to clarify what I had in mind by "elided" or "incomplete". I am using these terms grammatically / semantically, to express the intuition that there's something missing after the intensifier, given that forms such as Papuan Malay sampe and (Australian) English as usually occur in construction with another, following expression (or "complement").<br>
<br>
I was not implying that the construction in question should "sound incomplete" (to use Ilana's words below). But it's interesting that she characterizes the Australian English as construction as being associated with a "particular intonation", since the same is true also for the Papuan Malay construction with sampe. Though the specifics of the intonation contour seem to differ (in Papuan Malay, the peak of the contour falls on the preceding word, while the intensifier sampe is associated with low pitch, sounding like an afterthought).<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/04/2021 00:58, Ilana Mushin wrote:<br>
I can also confirm ‘sweet as’ in Australian English. I’ve seen it on advertising billboards. I think the construction ‘X as’ can be somewhat productive - eg I’ve certainly heard ‘dumb as’. There is a particular intonation that goes with the construction - the ‘as’ is lengthened and has a rise-fall contour so it doesn’t sound incomplete (this is impressionistic - someone may have a better idea of the prosody than me).<br>
<br>
Ilana<br>
<br>
Associate Professor Ilana Mushin<br>
Reader in Linguistics<br>
President, Australian Linguistic Society<br>
<br>
[/var/folders/lv/m77kqy0n4x1_rcd3pk0j2n900000gq/T/com.microsoft.Outlook/WebArchiveCopyPasteTempFiles/il.pb.png]Co-Editor, Interactional Linguistics (<a href="https://benjamins.com/catalog/il" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://benjamins.com/catalog/il</a><<a href="https://benjamins.com/catalog/il" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://benjamins.com/catalog/il</a>>)<br>
<br>
School of Languages and Cultures<br>
University of Queensland<br>
St Lucia, QLD 4072.<br>
Ph: (07) 3365 6810<tel:(07)%203365%206810><br>
<br>
CRICOS Provider No: 00025B<br>
<br>
I acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on whose land I live and work. Their sovereignty was never ceded.<br>
<br>
On 12 Apr 2021, at 5:27 am, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
I'm interested in exploring the properties and geographical distribution of a novel (well, to me at least) construction type which might be termed "Elided Intensification'. I'll explain with an example. In Papuan Malay, property-denoting and some other words may be intensified by the addition of sampe, a word whose other, more basic functions, include 'arrive' and 'until', e.g.<br>
<br>
(1) Enak sampe<br>
nice SAMPE<br>
'Very nice.'<br>
<br>
My informal "interpretation" of this construction is that it involves, or at least originated in, some kind of understood expression such as "nice arriving (at complete fulfillment)", or "nice until (completion)". As Papuan Malay is largely head-initial, it kind of feels like something is missing after the word sampe. (In Malay/Indonesian, this construction seems to be restricted geographically to the north coast of New Guinea and possibly also Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is absent.)<br>
<br>
So far, I am familiar with two other potential cases of Elided Intensification. The first is from Ambel, an Austronesian language spoken in the Raja Ampat archipelago of the northwest coast of New Guinea, in a region where Papuan Malay is also spoken. As described by Arnold (2018:145, pers comm), aya 'until' is used in a construction closely resembling that in (1):<br>
<br>
(2) Anlómo aya<br>
bleed.3SG.INAN AYA<br>
‘It bled a lot.’<br>
<br>
Arnold, Laura. 2018. A Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian Language of West New Guinea. PhD Dissertation. Edinburgh: University of Edinburgh.<br>
<br>
The second example, which I just came across, and which prompted this query, is Australian English. In the Wikipedia entry for Australian English, in a paragraph which deals with the infensification of adjectives, the following rather tantalizing passage occurs:<br>
<br>
"In informal speech, incomplete comparisons are sometimes used, such as "sweet as" (as in "That car is sweet as.")."<br>
<br>
So here it's comparative 'as' rather than 'arrive'/'until' that comes after the word being intensified, but still, all these cases seem to involve intensification with the elision of some kind of argument associated with the property word and denoting an extreme extent of the property in question.<br>
<br>
My questions:<br>
<br>
1. Could speakers of Australian English please confirm the existence of this construction, and comment on it. Does it occur in other varieties of English? (It was certainly completely new to me!)<br>
<br>
2. Is anybody familiar with possible cases of Elided Intensification in other languages, in Australia, New Guinea or elsewhere? On the flimsy basis of three examples, it looks like an Australian / New Guinea areal feature: is this the case? For the Australia / New Guinea region I'd also appreciate negative data, of the form "no, my language definitely doesn't do this".<br>
<br>
3. Any further comments and suggestions ...<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
David Gil<br>
<br>
Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
<br>
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<br>
--<br>
David Gil<br>
<br>
Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
<br>
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Message: 8<br>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 02:44:02 +0300<br>
From: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
To: Jess Tauber <<a href="mailto:tetrahedralpt@gmail.com" target="_blank">tetrahedralpt@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Query: Elided Intensification<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:a89beb70-cc65-762a-c017-bfc583f920ca@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">a89beb70-cc65-762a-c017-bfc583f920ca@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
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<br>
Jess,<br>
<br>
The construction you cite is a different construction: it's an elision, <br>
to be sure, but it's an elision of a comparative, and does not have an <br>
intensification function: it means 'He's as good as my son', not 'He's <br>
very good'.<br>
<br>
And its distribution is different: in my own English, for example, what <br>
Mrs. Wheasley says is fine, whereas /sweet as/ is word salad. (Though <br>
having just spent an hour or so watching those delightful "Beached As" <br>
videos that Naomi Peck provided the link to, I am tempted to start using <br>
the construction!)<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/04/2021 02:17, Jess Tauber wrote:<br>
> I remember an 'as good as' in one of the Harry Potter films (I think <br>
> it was the Order of the Phoenix?). This is where Mrs. Wheasley says of <br>
> Harry 'He's as good as' with reference to him not being her actual son.<br>
><br>
> Jess Tauber<br>
><br>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 6:36 PM David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a> <br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Thanks to those who have responded to my query so far, either to<br>
> me personally or on the list.<br>
><br>
> I'd like to clarify what I had in mind by "elided" or<br>
> "incomplete". I am using these terms grammatically /<br>
> semantically, to express the intuition that there's something<br>
> missing after the intensifier, given that forms such as Papuan<br>
> Malay /sampe/ and (Australian) English /as/ usually occur in<br>
> construction with another, following expression (or "complement").<br>
><br>
> I was not implying that the construction in question should "sound<br>
> incomplete" (to use Ilana's words below). But it's interesting<br>
> that she characterizes the Australian English /as/ construction as<br>
> being associated with a "particular intonation", since the same is<br>
> true also for the Papuan Malay construction with /sampe/. Though<br>
> the specifics of the intonation contour seem to differ (in Papuan<br>
> Malay, the peak of the contour falls on the preceding word, while<br>
> the intensifier /sampe/ is associated with low pitch, sounding<br>
> like an afterthought).<br>
><br>
> David<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 12/04/2021 00:58, Ilana Mushin wrote:<br>
>> I can also confirm ‘sweet as’ in Australian English. I’ve seen it<br>
>> on advertising billboards. I think the construction ‘X as’ can be<br>
>> somewhat productive - eg I’ve certainly heard ‘dumb as’. There is<br>
>> a particular intonation that goes with the construction - the<br>
>> ‘as’ is lengthened and has a rise-fall contour so it doesn’t<br>
>> sound incomplete (this is impressionistic - someone may have a<br>
>> better idea of the prosody than me).<br>
>><br>
>> Ilana<br>
>><br>
>> Associate Professor Ilana Mushin<br>
>><br>
>> Reader in Linguistics<br>
>><br>
>> President, Australian Linguistic Society<br>
>><br>
>> /var/folders/lv/m77kqy0n4x1_rcd3pk0j2n900000gq/T/com.microsoft.Outlook/WebArchiveCopyPasteTempFiles/il.pb.pngCo-Editor,<br>
>> /Interactional Linguistics/ (<a href="https://benjamins.com/catalog/il" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://benjamins.com/catalog/il</a><br>
>> <<a href="https://benjamins.com/catalog/il" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://benjamins.com/catalog/il</a>>)<br>
>><br>
>> School of Languages and Cultures<br>
>><br>
>> University of Queensland<br>
>><br>
>> St Lucia, QLD 4072.<br>
>><br>
>> Ph: (07) 3365 6810 <tel:(07)%203365%206810><br>
>><br>
>> CRICOS Provider No: 00025B<br>
>><br>
>> *I acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on whose land I<br>
>> live and work. Their sovereignty was never ceded.*<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> On 12 Apr 2021, at 5:27 am, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> <br>
>>><br>
>>> Dear all,<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> I'm interested in exploring the properties and geographical<br>
>>> distribution of a novel (well, to me at least) construction type<br>
>>> which might be termed "Elided Intensification'.I'll explain with<br>
>>> an example.In Papuan Malay, property-denoting and some other<br>
>>> words may be intensified by the addition of /sampe/, a word<br>
>>> whose other, more basic functions, include 'arrive' and 'until',<br>
>>> e.g.<br>
>>><br>
>>> (1) Enak sampe<br>
>>><br>
>>> nice SAMPE<br>
>>><br>
>>> 'Very nice.'<br>
>>><br>
>>> My informal "interpretation" of this construction is that it<br>
>>> involves, or at least originated in, some kind of understood<br>
>>> expression such as "nice arriving (at complete fulfillment)", or<br>
>>> "nice until (completion)".As Papuan Malay is largely<br>
>>> head-initial, it kind of feels like something is missing after<br>
>>> the word /sampe/.(In Malay/Indonesian, this construction seems<br>
>>> to be restricted geographically to the north coast of New Guinea<br>
>>> and possibly also Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is absent.)<br>
>>><br>
>>> So far, I am familiar with two other potential cases of Elided<br>
>>> Intensification.The first is from Ambel, an Austronesian<br>
>>> language spoken in the Raja Ampat archipelago of the northwest<br>
>>> coast of New Guinea, in a region where Papuan Malay is also<br>
>>> spoken.As described by Arnold (2018:145, pers comm), /aya/<br>
>>> 'until' is used in a construction closely resembling that in (1):<br>
>>><br>
>>> (2) Anlómo aya<br>
>>><br>
>>> bleed.3SG.INAN AYA<br>
>>><br>
>>> ‘It bled a lot.’<br>
>>><br>
>>> Arnold, Laura. 2018./A Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian<br>
>>> Language of West New Guinea/. PhD Dissertation.Edinburgh:<br>
>>> University of Edinburgh.<br>
>>><br>
>>> The second example, which I just came across, and which prompted<br>
>>> this query, is Australian English.In the Wikipedia entry for<br>
>>> Australian English, in a paragraph which deals with the<br>
>>> infensification of adjectives, the following rather tantalizing<br>
>>> passage occurs:<br>
>>><br>
>>> "In informal speech, incomplete comparisons are sometimes used,<br>
>>> such as "sweet as" (as in "That car is sweet as.")."<br>
>>><br>
>>> So here it's comparative 'as' rather than 'arrive'/'until' that<br>
>>> comes after the word being intensified, but still, all these<br>
>>> cases seem to involve intensification with the elision of some<br>
>>> kind of argument associated with the property word and denoting<br>
>>> an extreme extent of the property in question.<br>
>>><br>
>>> My questions:<br>
>>><br>
>>> 1.Could speakers of Australian English please confirm the<br>
>>> existence of this construction, and comment on it.Does it occur<br>
>>> in other varieties of English?(It was certainly completely new<br>
>>> to me!)<br>
>>><br>
>>> 2.Is anybody familiar with possible cases of Elided<br>
>>> Intensification in other languages, in Australia, New Guinea or<br>
>>> elsewhere?On the flimsy basis of three examples, it looks like<br>
>>> an Australian / New Guinea areal feature: is this the case?For<br>
>>> the Australia / New Guinea region I'd also appreciate negative<br>
>>> data, of the form "no, my language definitely doesn't do this".<br>
>>><br>
>>> 3.Any further comments and suggestions ...<br>
>>><br>
>>> Thanks,<br>
>>><br>
>>> David<br>
>>><br>
>>> -- <br>
>>> David Gil<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
>>> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
>>> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
>>> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
>>> <br>
>>> <a href="mailto:Email%3Agil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">Email:gil@shh.mpg.de</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
>>> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
>>> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> Lingtyp mailing list<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
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><br>
> -- <br>
> David Gil<br>
> <br>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
> <br>
> <a href="mailto:Email%3Agil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">Email:gil@shh.mpg.de</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Lingtyp mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
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><br>
-- <br>
David Gil<br>
<br>
Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<br>
<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div></div>