<chatflow-meta x-message-id="c-796c6-kndl4w0p-tsbzgy=1f2gnjg@2.gethop.com" x-data="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"></chatflow-meta><div dir="LTR">Hi David,<br><br>Re: your first question, this construction is very much present in Australian English. It has been common for over 10 years and possibly also in New Zealand English, as suggested by a favourite series of mine produced by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc" >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc</a>).<br><br>I'd also add that my intuition is that the example you gave from AusE is perhaps more 'complete' than the explanation suggests. You could certainly ask someone "sweet as what?" but the response would likely be "I don't know, just sweet as!".<br><br>Cheers,<br>Naomi</div><chatflow-embed type="card"><br><div style="border-radius:10px;background:#f0f0f0;max-width:640px;"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" border="0" width="100%" style="table-layout:fixed"><tr><td width="60" nowrap><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc" style="text-decoration:none;"><img src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3cPs2SzShNc/hqdefault.jpg" width="60" height="60" border="0" style="display:block;border-radius:8px;object-fit:cover"></a></td><td width="10" nowrap><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc" style="text-decoration:none; display:block; width:100%; height:60px !important;"> </a></td><td width="100%" valign="middle"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc" style="text-decoration:none;"><div style="line-height:20px;max-height:20px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:nowrap;"><b>Beached Az: The Seagull. Ep 1, Series 1</b></div><div style="color:#666;line-height:20px;max-height:20px;overflow:hidden;text-overflow:ellipsis;white-space:nowrap;">After waking up on the shores of a New Zealand beach, the Whale encounters a Seagull who has trouble comprehending why whales can't eat chips.</div></a></td><td width="10" nowrap><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPs2SzShNc" style="text-decoration:none; display:block; width:100%; height:60px !important;"> </a></td></tr></table></div></chatflow-embed><div class="chatflow-embed" x-type="signature"><br></div><div class="hop_extra"><br>On April 11, 2021 at 19:28 GMT, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="hop_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .2ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Dear all,<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">I'm interested in
exploring the properties and geographical distribution of a
novel (well, to me
at least) construction type which might be termed "Elided
Intensification'.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>I'll
explain with an
example.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>In Papuan
Malay, property-denoting and some other words
may be intensified by the addition of <i>sampe</i>, a word
whose other, more
basic functions, include 'arrive' and 'until', e.g.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">(1) <span style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>Enak
sampe</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>nice
SAMPE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>'Very
nice.'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">My informal
"interpretation" of this construction is that it involves, or at
least originated in, some kind of understood expression such as
"nice arriving
(at complete fulfillment)", or "nice until (completion)".<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>As Papuan Malay is largely
head-initial, it
kind of feels like something is missing after the word <i>sampe</i>.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>(In Malay/Indonesian, this
construction seems
to be restricted geographically to the north coast of New Guinea
and possibly
also Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is absent.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">So far, I am familiar
with two other potential cases of Elided Intensification.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>The first is from Ambel, an
Austronesian
language spoken in the Raja Ampat archipelago of the northwest
coast of New
Guinea, in a region where Papuan Malay is also spoken.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>As described by Arnold
(2018:145, pers comm),
<i>aya</i> 'until' is used in a construction closely resembling
that in (1):</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin">(2)
<span style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>Anlómo aya </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin"><span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>bleed.3SG.INAN AYA
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin"><span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>‘It bled a lot.’</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:27.0pt;text-align:justify;text-justify:
inter-ideograph;text-indent:-27.0pt;mso-pagination:widow-orphan
lines-together"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin">Arnold,
Laura. 2018.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span><i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">A Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian Language of West
New Guinea</i>.
PhD Dissertation.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Edinburgh:
University
of Edinburgh.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">The second example,
which I just came across, and which prompted this query, is
Australian English.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>In
the Wikipedia entry for Australian
English, in a paragraph which deals with the infensification of
adjectives, the
following rather tantalizing passage occurs:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin">"In
informal
speech, incomplete comparisons are sometimes used, such as
"sweet as"
(as in "That car is sweet as.")."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin">So
here it's comparative 'as' rather than 'arrive'/'until' that
comes after the word being intensified, but still, all these
cases seem to
involve intensification with the elision of some kind of
argument associated
with the property word and denoting an extreme extent of the
property in
question.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">My questions:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">1.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Could
speakers of Australian English please
confirm the existence of this construction, and comment on it.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Does it occur in other
varieties of English?<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>(It
was certainly completely new to me!)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">2.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Is
anybody familiar with possible cases of
Elided Intensification in other languages, in Australia, New
Guinea or
elsewhere?<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>On the flimsy
basis of three
examples, it looks like an Australian / New Guinea areal
feature: is this the
case?<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>For the Australia
/ New Guinea
region I'd also appreciate negative data, of the form "no, my
language
definitely doesn't do this".</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">3.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Any
further comments and suggestions ...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">David</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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