<div dir="ltr">I remember an 'as good as' in one of the Harry Potter films (I think it was the Order of the Phoenix?). This is where Mrs. Wheasley says of Harry 'He's as good as' with reference to him not being her actual son.<div><br></div><div>Jess Tauber</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 6:36 PM David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Thanks to those who have responded to my query so far, either to
me personally or on the list.</p>
<p>I'd like to clarify what I had in mind by "elided" or
"incomplete". I am using these terms grammatically /
semantically, to express the intuition that there's something
missing after the intensifier, given that forms such as Papuan
Malay <i>sampe</i> and (Australian) English <i>as</i> usually
occur in construction with another, following expression (or
"complement").</p>
<p>I was not implying that the construction in question should
"sound incomplete" (to use Ilana's words below). But it's
interesting that she characterizes the Australian English <i>as</i>
construction as being associated with a "particular intonation",
since the same is true also for the Papuan Malay construction with
<i>sampe</i>. Though the specifics of the intonation contour seem
to differ (in Papuan Malay, the peak of the contour falls on the
preceding word, while the intensifier <i>sampe</i> is associated
with low pitch, sounding like an afterthought).</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 12/04/2021 00:58, Ilana Mushin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
I can also confirm ‘sweet as’ in Australian English. I’ve seen it
on advertising billboards. I think the construction ‘X as’ can be
somewhat productive - eg I’ve certainly heard ‘dumb as’. There is
a particular intonation that goes with the construction - the ‘as’
is lengthened and has a rise-fall contour so it doesn’t sound
incomplete (this is impressionistic - someone may have a better
idea of the prosody than me).
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ilana<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Associate
Professor Ilana Mushin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Reader
in Linguistics<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">President,
Australian Linguistic Society<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><img id="gmail-m_1709497685492747566Picture_x0020_1" alt="/var/folders/lv/m77kqy0n4x1_rcd3pk0j2n900000gq/T/com.microsoft.Outlook/WebArchiveCopyPasteTempFiles/il.pb.png" style="width: 0.6041in; height: 0.8125in;" width="58" height="78">Co-Editor, <i>Interactional
Linguistics</i> (<a href="https://benjamins.com/catalog/il" target="_blank">https://benjamins.com/catalog/il</a>) <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><span lang="EN-US">School of Languages and Cultures</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><span lang="EN-US">University of Queensland</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><span lang="EN-US">St Lucia, QLD 4072.</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Ph: <a href="tel:(07)%203365%206810" dir="ltr" target="_blank">(07)
3365 6810</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">CRICOS
Provider No: 00025B<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><b style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">I
acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on whose
land I live and work. Their sovereignty was never ceded.</b></p>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On 12 Apr 2021, at 5:27 am, David Gil
<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"><gil@shh.mpg.de></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear all,<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I'm interested in exploring the properties
and geographical distribution of a novel (well, to me at
least) construction type which might be termed "Elided
Intensification'.<span>
</span>I'll explain with an example.<span> </span>In Papuan Malay,
property-denoting and some other words may be
intensified by the addition of
<i>sampe</i>, a word whose other, more basic functions,
include 'arrive' and 'until', e.g.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(1)
<span> </span>Enak sampe</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><span>
</span>nice SAMPE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><span>
</span>'Very nice.'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">My informal "interpretation" of this
construction is that it involves, or at least originated
in, some kind of understood expression such as "nice
arriving (at complete fulfillment)", or "nice until
(completion)".<span>
</span>As Papuan Malay is largely head-initial, it kind
of feels like something is missing after the word
<i>sampe</i>.<span> </span>(In
Malay/Indonesian, this construction seems to be
restricted geographically to the north coast of New
Guinea and possibly also Northern Maluku; elsewhere it
is absent.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So far, I am familiar with two other
potential cases of Elided Intensification.<span>
</span>The first is from Ambel, an Austronesian language
spoken in the Raja Ampat archipelago of the northwest
coast of New Guinea, in a region where Papuan Malay is
also spoken.<span>
</span>As described by Arnold (2018:145, pers comm), <i>aya</i>
'until' is used in a construction closely resembling
that in (1):</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>(2)
<span> </span>Anlómo aya </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>
</span>bleed.3SG.INAN AYA </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>
</span>‘It bled a lot.’</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:27pt;text-align:justify">
<span>Arnold,
Laura. 2018.<span>
</span><i>A Grammar
of Ambel, An Austronesian Language of West New Guinea</i>.
PhD Dissertation.<span>
</span>Edinburgh: University of Edinburgh.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The second example, which I just came
across, and which prompted this query, is Australian
English.<span>
</span>In the Wikipedia entry for Australian English, in
a paragraph which deals with the infensification of
adjectives, the following rather tantalizing passage
occurs:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>"In
informal speech, incomplete comparisons are sometimes
used, such as "sweet as" (as in "That car is sweet
as.")."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>So
here it's comparative 'as' rather than 'arrive'/'until'
that comes after the word being intensified, but still,
all these cases seem to involve intensification with the
elision of some kind of argument associated with the
property word and denoting an extreme extent of the
property in question.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">My questions:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">1.<span>
</span>Could speakers of Australian English please
confirm the existence of this construction, and comment
on it.<span>
</span>Does it occur in other varieties of English?<span>
</span>(It was certainly completely new to me!)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">2.<span>
</span>Is anybody familiar with possible cases of Elided
Intensification in other languages, in Australia, New
Guinea or elsewhere?<span>
</span>On the flimsy basis of three examples, it looks
like an Australian / New Guinea areal feature: is this
the case?<span>
</span>For the Australia / New Guinea region I'd also
appreciate negative data, of the form "no, my language
definitely doesn't do this".</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">3.<span>
</span>Any further comments and suggestions ...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">David</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p>
</p>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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