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<p>Thanks for this, Pier Marco. I would note, however, that in my
own two native languages, English and Hebrew, AS and HOW are
expressed with different forms (as opposed to a single polysemous
form). And both English and Hebrew have a construction similar to
the Italian, but one that makes use of the HOW word, not the AS
word: English <i>... and how!</i> Hebrew <i>... veʕod ex!</i>
(and:more how). This seems to me to diminish the similarity
between the Italian <i>Sei felice? Eccome!</i> and the Australian
English <i>sweet as</i> construction. Though I admit that there
may still be some distant resemblance.</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/04/2021 14:19, Pier Marco
Bertinetto wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABoVV58UPsH_mM5-s8HWVEu1U2FZfQG=xY6Xwtc_oiHt0hrXCQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Frans's comment made me realize that one has the same in
Italian:<br>
</div>
<div>"Come" is a comparative marker (an equalizer):<br>
</div>
<div>Gino è alto come Piero<br>
</div>
<div>'G. is as tall as P.'</div>
<div>But then one has "eccome" (< "e come" 'and as') which is
an intensifier:</div>
<div>Sei felice? Eccome!<br>
</div>
<div>'Are you happy? Very much!'</div>
<div>It may also be turned into a question: "eccome no?" 'how
could it be otherwise?', which retains much of the original
comparative meaning.<br>
</div>
<div>Best<br>
</div>
<div>Pier Marco</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno lun 12 apr 2021
alle ore 11:10 Frans Plank <<a
href="mailto:frans.plank@uni-konstanz.de"
moz-do-not-send="true">frans.plank@uni-konstanz.de</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div><br>
</div>
Und wie, Guillaume! (Which is German.)
<div><br>
<div>Frans<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"> <br>
<br>
<div>Le 12/04/2021 à 00:35, David Gil a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Thanks to those who have responded to my
query so far, either to me personally or on
the list.</p>
<p>I'd like to clarify what I had in mind by
"elided" or "incomplete". I am using these
terms grammatically / semantically, to express
the intuition that there's something missing
after the intensifier, given that forms such
as Papuan Malay <i>sampe</i> and (Australian)
English <i>as</i> usually occur in
construction with another, following
expression (or "complement").</p>
<p>I was not implying that the construction in
question should "sound incomplete" (to use
Ilana's words below). But it's interesting
that she characterizes the Australian English
<i>as</i> construction as being associated
with a "particular intonation", since the same
is true also for the Papuan Malay construction
with <i>sampe</i>. Though the specifics of
the intonation contour seem to differ (in
Papuan Malay, the peak of the contour falls on
the preceding word, while the intensifier <i>sampe</i>
is associated with low pitch, sounding like an
afterthought).</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 12/04/2021 00:58, Ilana Mushin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> I can also confirm
‘sweet as’ in Australian English. I’ve seen it
on advertising billboards. I think the
construction ‘X as’ can be somewhat productive
- eg I’ve certainly heard ‘dumb as’. There is
a particular intonation that goes with the
construction - the ‘as’ is lengthened and has
a rise-fall contour so it doesn’t sound
incomplete (this is impressionistic - someone
may have a better idea of the prosody than
me).
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ilana<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Associate
Professor Ilana Mushin</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Reader in
Linguistics</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>President,
Australian Linguistic Society</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><img
id="gmail-m_-1268825738199900712Picture_x0020_1"
alt="/var/folders/lv/m77kqy0n4x1_rcd3pk0j2n900000gq/T/com.microsoft.Outlook/WebArchiveCopyPasteTempFiles/il.pb.png"
moz-do-not-send="true" width="58"
height="78">Co-Editor, <i>Interactional
Linguistics</i> (<a
href="https://benjamins.com/catalog/il"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://benjamins.com/catalog/il</a>) </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
lang="EN-US">School of Languages and
Cultures</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
lang="EN-US">University of
Queensland</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span
lang="EN-US">St Lucia, QLD 4072.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Ph: <a
href="tel:(07)%203365%206810"
dir="ltr" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">(07) 3365
6810</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>CRICOS Provider
No: 00025B</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>I acknowledge
the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on
whose land I live and work. Their
sovereignty was never ceded.</b></p>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On 12 Apr 2021, at
5:27 am, David Gil <a
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><gil@shh.mpg.de></a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear
all,<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I'm
interested in exploring the
properties and geographical
distribution of a novel (well, to me
at least) construction type which
might be termed "Elided
Intensification'.<span> </span>I'll
explain with an example.<span> </span>In
Papuan Malay, property-denoting and
some other words may be intensified
by the addition of <i>sampe</i>, a
word whose other, more basic
functions, include 'arrive' and
'until', e.g.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(1)
<span> </span>Enak sampe</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><span>
</span>nice SAMPE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><span>
</span>'Very nice.'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">My
informal "interpretation" of this
construction is that it involves, or
at least originated in, some kind of
understood expression such as "nice
arriving (at complete fulfillment)",
or "nice until (completion)".<span>
</span>As Papuan Malay is largely
head-initial, it kind of feels like
something is missing after the word
<i>sampe</i>.<span> </span>(In
Malay/Indonesian, this construction
seems to be restricted
geographically to the north coast of
New Guinea and possibly also
Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is
absent.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So
far, I am familiar with two other
potential cases of Elided
Intensification.<span> </span>The
first is from Ambel, an Austronesian
language spoken in the Raja Ampat
archipelago of the northwest coast
of New Guinea, in a region where
Papuan Malay is also spoken.<span>
</span>As described by Arnold
(2018:145, pers comm), <i>aya</i>
'until' is used in a construction
closely resembling that in (1):</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>(2) <span>
</span>Anlómo aya </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>
</span>bleed.3SG.INAN AYA </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>
</span>‘It bled a lot.’</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <span>Arnold,
Laura. 2018.<span> </span><i>A
Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian
Language of West New Guinea</i>.
PhD Dissertation.<span> </span>Edinburgh:
University of Edinburgh.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The
second example, which I just came
across, and which prompted this
query, is Australian English.<span>
</span>In the Wikipedia entry for
Australian English, in a paragraph
which deals with the infensification
of adjectives, the following rather
tantalizing passage occurs:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>"In informal
speech, incomplete comparisons are
sometimes used, such as "sweet as"
(as in "That car is sweet as.")."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>So here it's
comparative 'as' rather than
'arrive'/'until' that comes after
the word being intensified, but
still, all these cases seem to
involve intensification with the
elision of some kind of argument
associated with the property word
and denoting an extreme extent of
the property in question.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">My
questions:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">1.<span>
</span>Could speakers of Australian
English please confirm the existence
of this construction, and comment on
it.<span> </span>Does it occur in
other varieties of English?<span> </span>(It
was certainly completely new to me!)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">2.<span>
</span>Is anybody familiar with
possible cases of Elided
Intensification in other languages,
in Australia, New Guinea or
elsewhere?<span> </span>On the
flimsy basis of three examples, it
looks like an Australian / New
Guinea areal feature: is this the
case?<span> </span>For the
Australia / New Guinea region I'd
also appreciate negative data, of
the form "no, my language definitely
doesn't do this".</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">3.<span>
</span>Any further comments and
suggestions ...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">David</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p> </p>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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<pre cols="72"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span>=========================================================
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span> |||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
------ professore emerito
/////// Scuola Normale Superiore
------- <a href="http://p.za" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">p.za</a> dei Cavalieri 7<span style="background-color:rgb(243,243,243)"><span></span></span>
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///////
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/////// phone: +39 0584 652417<span style="background-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></span>
------- cell.: +39 368 3830251
=========================================================
editor of "Italian Journal of Linguistics"
webpage <<a href="https://www.sns.it/it/bertinetto-pier-marco" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.sns.it/it/bertinetto-pier-marco</a>>
"Laboratorio di Linguistica" <<a href="http://linguistica.sns.it" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://linguistica.sns.it</a>>
=========================================================</pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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