<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><br><br><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPad</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 12. Apr 2021, at 09:58, Guillaume Segerer <guillaume.segerer@cnrs.fr> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Dear all<br>
<br>
In Joola (Niger-Congo, Atlantic, Keeraak variety), <b><i>nɔɔn</i></b>
means 'as' or 'like', as in the following examples :<br>
<br>
<i>dɔmɔ fʊtɛm <b>nɔɔn</b> wah warɛɛmɛ</i><br>
COP.IMPERS smell.IMPERF 'as' thing has-burnt<br>
'it smells as if something has burnt' (French: 'ça sent comme si
quelque chose avait brûlé')<br>
<br>
<i>hʊkɛn ɩnjɛ ɩ-cɔkɔm barɛ i-sim <b>nɔɔn</b> ɛbɔɔs<br>
</i>yesterday I 1sg-wound.PERF but 1sg-bleed 'like' cow<br>
'Yesterday I got wounded and I bleeded like a cow' (French 'hier je
me suis blessé et j'ai saigné comme une vache')<br>
<br>
It may also be used as an intensifier :<br>
<br>
<i>sɩnaŋas si-suum-e <b>nɔɔn</b></i><br>
cooked_rice AGR-be.good-PERF <i><b>nɔɔn</b></i><br>
'the rice is very good'<br>
<br>
<i>na-cab-ɛ nɔɔn ɛɬakɛnay</i><br>
3sg-do.quickly-PERF <i><b>nɔɔn</b></i> INF.cook<br>
He did the cooking very quickly<br>
<br>
<i>nʊ-ŋəmi-e <b>nɔɔn</b> jabajɔɔraj jala di baɲɩɩlab</i><br>
2sg-love-PERF <i><b>nɔɔn</b></i> INF.scold of at children<br>
'you really love to scold children'<br>
<br>
In Joola, qualities are mostly expressed by verbs. As can be seen in
the above examples, <i><b>nɔɔn</b></i> always appears after verbs,
and I have no counterexample (but the number of examples is not that
high...). These constructions may be considered as 'elided', since
they may often (always ?) be completed by the word <i><b>bəjəəm</b></i>,
for which none of my consultants could provide a translation...
(this reminds me of the French expression 'comme tout' in 'il est
gentil comme tout') :<br>
<i>suum-e <b>nɔɔn</b> ~ suum-e <b>nɔɔn bəjəəm</b></i><br>
IMPERS.be.good-PERF <i><b>nɔɔn</b></i> ~ IMPERS.be.good-PERF <i>as</i>
????<br>
'it is very good'<br>
<br>
Unfortunately, my knowledge of the language does not allow me to be
more precise. I still hope this may help.<br>
<br>
Guillaume<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Und wie, Guillaume! (Which is German.)<div><br><div>Frans<br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 12/04/2021 à 00:35, David Gil a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:ebdb3e3d-bbfd-5d83-34ed-cb6eec3c7929@shh.mpg.de">
<p>Thanks to those who have responded to my query so far, either
to me personally or on the list.</p>
<p>I'd like to clarify what I had in mind by "elided" or
"incomplete". I am using these terms grammatically /
semantically, to express the intuition that there's something
missing after the intensifier, given that forms such as Papuan
Malay <i>sampe</i> and (Australian) English <i>as</i> usually
occur in construction with another, following expression (or
"complement").</p>
<p>I was not implying that the construction in question should
"sound incomplete" (to use Ilana's words below). But it's
interesting that she characterizes the Australian English <i>as</i>
construction as being associated with a "particular intonation",
since the same is true also for the Papuan Malay construction
with <i>sampe</i>. Though the specifics of the intonation
contour seem to differ (in Papuan Malay, the peak of the contour
falls on the preceding word, while the intensifier <i>sampe</i>
is associated with low pitch, sounding like an afterthought).</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/04/2021 00:58, Ilana Mushin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:AFFDBDC0-0851-46E1-9151-D26AFAEE8AB3@uq.edu.au"> I can
also confirm ‘sweet as’ in Australian English. I’ve seen it on
advertising billboards. I think the construction ‘X as’ can be
somewhat productive - eg I’ve certainly heard ‘dumb as’. There
is a particular intonation that goes with the construction - the
‘as’ is lengthened and has a rise-fall contour so it doesn’t
sound incomplete (this is impressionistic - someone may have a
better idea of the prosody than me).
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ilana<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Associate Professor Ilana Mushin</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Reader in Linguistics</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>President, Australian Linguistic
Society</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span lang="EN-US">School of
Languages and Cultures</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span lang="EN-US">University of
Queensland</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span lang="EN-US">St Lucia, QLD
4072.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Ph: <a href="tel:(07)%203365%206810" dir="ltr" moz-do-not-send="true">(07) 3365 6810</a></span></p>
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<div>
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sovereignty was never ceded.</b></p>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On 12 Apr 2021, at 5:27 am, David
Gil <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true"><gil@shh.mpg.de></a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear all,<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I'm interested in
exploring the properties and geographical distribution
of a novel (well, to me at least) construction type
which might be termed "Elided Intensification'.<span>
</span>I'll explain with an example.<span> </span>In
Papuan Malay, property-denoting and some other words
may be intensified by the addition of <i>sampe</i>, a
word whose other, more basic functions, include
'arrive' and 'until', e.g.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(1) <span> </span>Enak
sampe</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><span>
</span>nice SAMPE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><span>
</span>'Very nice.'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">My informal
"interpretation" of this construction is that it
involves, or at least originated in, some kind of
understood expression such as "nice arriving (at
complete fulfillment)", or "nice until (completion)".<span>
</span>As Papuan Malay is largely head-initial, it
kind of feels like something is missing after the word
<i>sampe</i>.<span> </span>(In Malay/Indonesian,
this construction seems to be restricted
geographically to the north coast of New Guinea and
possibly also Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is
absent.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So far, I am
familiar with two other potential cases of Elided
Intensification.<span> </span>The first is from
Ambel, an Austronesian language spoken in the Raja
Ampat archipelago of the northwest coast of New
Guinea, in a region where Papuan Malay is also spoken.<span>
</span>As described by Arnold (2018:145, pers comm), <i>aya</i>
'until' is used in a construction closely resembling
that in (1):</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>(2) <span> </span>Anlómo
aya </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span> </span>bleed.3SG.INAN
AYA </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span> </span>‘It
bled a lot.’</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <span>Arnold, Laura. 2018.<span> </span><i>A
Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian Language of West
New Guinea</i>. PhD Dissertation.<span> </span>Edinburgh:
University of Edinburgh.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The second
example, which I just came across, and which prompted
this query, is Australian English.<span> </span>In
the Wikipedia entry for Australian English, in a
paragraph which deals with the infensification of
adjectives, the following rather tantalizing passage
occurs:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>"In informal speech, incomplete
comparisons are sometimes used, such as "sweet as" (as
in "That car is sweet as.")."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>So here it's comparative 'as'
rather than 'arrive'/'until' that comes after the word
being intensified, but still, all these cases seem to
involve intensification with the elision of some kind
of argument associated with the property word and
denoting an extreme extent of the property in
question.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">My questions:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">1.<span> </span>Could
speakers of Australian English please confirm the
existence of this construction, and comment on it.<span>
</span>Does it occur in other varieties of English?<span>
</span>(It was certainly completely new to me!)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">2.<span> </span>Is
anybody familiar with possible cases of Elided
Intensification in other languages, in Australia, New
Guinea or elsewhere?<span> </span>On the flimsy
basis of three examples, it looks like an Australian /
New Guinea areal feature: is this the case?<span> </span>For
the Australia / New Guinea region I'd also appreciate
negative data, of the form "no, my language definitely
doesn't do this".</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">3.<span> </span>Any
further comments and suggestions ...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">David</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p> </p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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