<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">dear all,</font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br></font></div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">As various people have pointed out, the idea of standardized questionnaires for grammatical elicitation is <span class="gmail_default">far from </span>new, and there have been many valuable attempts already. </font><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">A rich selection of such questionnaires can be found on the homepage of the CNRS Fédération <i><span class="gmail_default"></span>Typologie & Universaux du Langage</i> (TUL) <a href="http://tulquest.huma-num.fr/en/node/9" target="_blank">http://tulquest.huma-num.fr/en/node/9</a>. Th<span class="gmail_default">e</span> Questionnaire project, led by Aimée Lahaussois (CNRS-HTL),<span class="gmail_default"> has led to a dedicated website, and also to a special volume of LD&C, with lots of relevant discussion:</span><br><ul><li><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"></span></font><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"></span><span style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Aimée Lahaussois & Marine Vuillermet (eds.), <i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"></span>Methodological Tools for Linguistic Description and Typology</i>. Special issue of <i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"></span>Language Documentation & Conservation</i> 16, 155-196. <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"></span><a href="http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/sp16/" target="_blank">http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/sp16/</a></span></li></ul></font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default">My own contribution to this volume was precisely motivated (among other things) by the</span> idea of creating parallel corpora for grammatical elicitation and comparison<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">.</span></font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">I thus proposed <i>conversational questionnaires</i></span><span class="gmail_default"></span>:<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"> as a new tool:</span></font><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default"><ul><li style="margin-left:15px"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">François, Alexandre. 2019. <a href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/data/AlexFrancois_2019_Conversational-questionnaires_LDC-sp16.pdf" target="_blank">A proposal for conversational questionnaires</a>. <br>In Aimée Lahaussois & Marine Vuillermet (eds.), <i>Methodological Tools for Linguistic Description and Typology</i>. <br>Special issue of <i>Language Documentation & Conservation </i>16, 155-196. [hdl:<a href="https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/handle/10125/24861" target="_blank">10125/24861</a>]</font></li></ul></div></div><div class="gmail_default"></div><div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">(I sent this chapter to Ian yesterday in an offline message, and I just saw that Ian sent it to the list – thanks Ian!)</font></div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">A word of explanation:</font></div></div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"></span>I've used similar questionnaires in the field in Vanuatu and the Solomons since 2003, and they've allowed me to efficiently collect data for descriptive and comparative purposes. (Of course, in combination with the recording of spontaneous speech in each language.) Some of my questionnaires, or similar ones inspired by the method, have been also successfully tested by students and colleagues in other locations. <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"></span></font></div><div><br></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">One of the main concerns behind <span class="gmail_default">my </span>proposal was the observation that syntactic questionnaires based on isolated sentences (<span class="gmail_default">of the type </span><span class="gmail_default">"</span>The bird was eaten by the dog.') typically result in contrived and unnatural responses, with a high risk of a translation bias, and uncertainty whether the proposed translation is indeed communicatively / pragmatically equivalent to the original. <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">The</span><span class="gmail_default"> conversational questionnaires I propose focus on <b>idiomaticity</b>, which is one of my principal subjects of interest in linguistics. The idea is to elicit data using </span>snippets of <span class="gmail_default">quasi-naturalistic </span>conversation instead of isolated sentences, so as to emulate the natural ecology of linguistic utterances, which after <span class="gmail_default">all is </span>always dialogic<span class="gmail_default">al</span>. </font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br></font></div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default"></span>Eg. Dialogue <span class="gmail_default">3</span> (p. <span class="gmail_default">183, "Seeing the doctor"</span>) has <span class="gmail_default">this sort of dialogue </span>: </font><div><div style="text-align:center"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"> </font></div></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">14. B – Does it hurt during the day? or only at night?</font></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">15. A – Mostly at night. I don’t know why.</font></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">16. Doctor, I’m a bit worried: what is going on?</font></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">17. B – Did you eat anything particular lately?</font></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">18. A – Hm, let me remember… No, I don’t think so.</font></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">19. Oh wait, actually yes I did!</font></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">20. Last week, my child came back from the forest</font></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">with some strange fruit I had never seen.</font></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">21. He gave them to me, for me to try.</font></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">22. B – Did you?</font></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">23. A – Yes I did. Actually I liked it, it was sweet. I ate many of them.</font></blockquote></div></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">24. But then, I became sick after that. </font></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div dir="ltr"><div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default">This method is not perfect of course, and some of the issues usually raised by elicitation in general are still relevant; in terms of idiomaticity, of course nothing beats actual spontaneous speech! But then, spontaneous speech is, by essence, difficult to channel into a system of parallel corpora.</span></font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default">The chapter discusses some of the issues, weighs the pros and cons of conversational questionnaires. On pp.171 sqq (“</span>Conversational questionnaires as parallel corpora”) I specifically discuss <span class="gmail_default">the possible contribution of such questionnaires to linguistic typology. Thus, if dialogue D3 above were to be translated into many languages, sentence #20 could be taken as a data point for relative clauses (<i>some strange fruit I had never seen</i>); #21 would elicit one type of purposive clause; etc. </span></font></div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br>As I wrote yesterday to Ian in <span class="gmail_default">my</span> <span class="gmail_default">offline </span>message<span class="gmail_default">:</span></font></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">"By going in the form of entire "conversations" (albeit scripted ones), you increase the chance of responses to be more idiomatic; and also, you give your consultant more time to mentally elaborate a situation that may be conducive to the sort of construction you're looking for. </font></div></div><div><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">For example, a passive voice is very difficult to elicit in an isolated sentence, and I really advise my students against trying that; but a dialogue allows you to construct a whole situation where some participants are pragmatically backgrounded vs. others foregrounded, etc; so you can create the typical discourse context in which a passive voice would be idiomatically used, if it exists in the language. An isolated sentence will never give you that."</font></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div class="gmail_default"></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br clear="all"></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><div><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default">The corpus of dialogues, of which I propose five samples in the chapter, would be meant to grow as more and more linguists elaborate similar questionnaires along the same principles. We could create a database of such questionnaires: the database would grow as we add more questionnaires, and also as we add more and more translations into languages of the world.</span></font></div><div></div></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">best,</font></div><div><div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><font size="2">Alex</font></span><hr style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" width="70" size="1" noshade align="left"><p style="font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif"><font size="2"><span style="color:rgb(69,129,142)">Alex François</span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></p><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="text-decoration:none" href="http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">LaTTiCe</a> — <a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://www.cnrs.fr/index.html" rel="noopener" target="_blank">CNRS–</a><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094" rel="noopener" target="_blank">ENS</a>–<a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://www.univ-paris3.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Sorbonne nouvelle</a><br></span><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://researchers.anu.edu.au/researchers/francois-a" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Australian National University<br></a><span style="text-decoration:none"></span><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://www.ae-info.org/ae/Member/François_Alexandre" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Academia Europaea</a> – </span></font><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://cnrs.academia.edu/AlexFran%C3%A7ois" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Academia.edu</a><br></span></font></span></font></span><div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span><span style="text-decoration:none"></span></font></span><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Personal homepage</a><br></span></font></span></div><div><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___</font><br><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"></span></font></span></div></div></div></div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 9 May 2021 at 10:38, Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
This is a great project – I have long thought that somone should
come up with a standard list of "comparative sentence meanings" of
this sort, analogous to the "comparative word meanings" as found in
Swadesh-type lists (the Concepticon brings together 353 lists of
this kind: <a href="https://concepticon.clld.org/contributions" target="_blank">https://concepticon.clld.org/contributions</a>).<br>
<br>
Parallel-word studies have enormously profited from standard word
meaning lists, and likewise, parallel-text studies will profit from
standard sentence meanings in many languages.<br>
<br>
We already have quite a few parallel texts, but they are typically
unglossed – so if linguists started to collect such "mini parallel
sentence sets" (also from smaller languages), this would be very
useful, I think.<br>
<br>
Of course, there are many individual ways in which Ian Joo's list
could be improved, and there are also many larger issues (of the
sort mentioned by Sandra). But maybe we should think of these as
limitations that are inherent in the method, not as problems that
make the method unsuitable. So I think it would be nice if a project
like this got off the ground. (It was actually suggested to me by
Michael Cysouw over 15 years ago, and I have kept thinking about
something of this sort on and off.)<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 09.05.21 um 09:25 schrieb Sandra
Auderset:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<img id="m_7427491849479037749gmail-m_4939868989131330653gmail-m_-3117018765357218908D79E3658BBA3D07A60FC38740E7A46A2" src="https://read-receipts.canarymail.io:8100/track/751F2D81C98B64244A1B80D2AD97DBC4_D79E3658BBA3D07A60FC38740E7A46A2.png" width="0px" height="0px">
<div id="m_7427491849479037749gmail-m_4939868989131330653gmail-m_-3117018765357218908CanaryBody">
<div> Hi Ian,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Following up on Hartmut, Yunfan and others, I have some
questions:</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>What do you do with variation? I’m not familiar with the
languages you work on, but ’Tense Future’ in German could
be translated as “Ich werde morgen gehen” or “Ich gehe
morgen”. The latter would be more frequent in spoken
language, but you might get the former because of
translation bias. Would you include both? You say that
your method accounts for the choice of the speaker, but
again I wonder if this isn’t just translation bias.</li>
<li>You say that this method has the advantage of including
more frequently observed features. I wonder how you know
whether that’s the case or not? Do you mean in spoken or
written language? As Yunfan pointed out, with 50 sentences
you might easily miss some common features.</li>
<li>How do you standardize the glosses? For example, how do
you decide whether something should be glossed as ‘be’ or
copula? That seems important to me, since glossing is very
subjective and you might inadvertendly bias the whole
calculation. Especially since you already wrote up the
conclusion.</li>
<li>Lastly, I find it odd that Example 2) is calculated as
having distance 1. To me, there are two differences:
presence/absence of nominative and the presence/absence of
a copula. How do you determine that the copula is in the
same slot as the nominative for calculation?</li>
</ul>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Sandra</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id="m_7427491849479037749gmail-m_4939868989131330653gmail-m_-3117018765357218908CanarySig">
<div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica">—<br>
<b><span style="font-size:12px"><font face="Tahoma"> <a href="https://sauderset.github.io/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12px">Sandra Auderset</span></a></font></span></b>
<div><span style="font-size:12px"><span style="font-size:12px"><font face="Tahoma">PhD
Candidate | [she/her]</font></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12px"><span style="font-size:12px"><font face="Tahoma">Department
of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution</font></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12px"><span style="font-size:12px"><font face="Tahoma">MPI for
Evolutionary Anthropology</font></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12px"><span style="font-size:12px"><font face="Tahoma">&</font></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12px"><span style="font-size:12px"><font face="Tahoma">Department
of Linguistics</font></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12px"><span style="font-size:12px"><font face="Tahoma">University
of California Santa Barbara</font></span></span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="m_7427491849479037749gmail-m_4939868989131330653gmail-m_-3117018765357218908CanaryDropbox"> </div>
<blockquote id="m_7427491849479037749gmail-m_4939868989131330653gmail-m_-3117018765357218908CanaryBlockquote">
<div>
<div>On Saturday, May 08, 2021 at 19:16, Hartmut Haberland
<<a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" target="_blank">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div lang="DA">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Dear Ian,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">I have a few comments.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">I was wondering about<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<table style="width:197pt;border-collapse:collapse" width="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:14pt">
<td style="width:96pt;padding:0cm 3.5pt;height:14pt" width="128" nowrap>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Genitive<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:101pt;padding:0cm 3.5pt;height:14pt" width="135" nowrap>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Alienable<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:14pt">
<td style="width:96pt;padding:0cm 3.5pt;height:14pt" width="128" nowrap>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Genitive<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:101pt;padding:0cm 3.5pt;height:14pt" width="135" nowrap>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Inalienable<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Is it a good idea to use ‘genitive’?
Would ‘possessive’ not be better?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Also I wonder about languages like
Finnish which express contrast between definiteness
and indefiniteness by word order:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Auto on kadulla. ‘<u>The car</u> is in
the street.’<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Kadulla on auto. ‘There is <u>a car</u>
in the street.’ (-ulla is inessive case.)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Also think of Italian<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">La macchina è rotta.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">È rotta la machina. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">both ‘The car is broken’, but are answers
to different questions (Where is your car?, Why are
you late?, resp.); same (SV vs. VS) in Greek. How
would you get these results?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Best, Hartmut<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
<b>På vegne af </b>JOO, Ian [Student]<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 8. maj 2021 15:08<br>
<b>Til:</b> LINGTYP
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Emne:</b> [Lingtyp] A list of 50 basic
sentences<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div name="messageBodySection">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,<br>
<br>
I am trying to make a list of 50 basic sentential
meanings.<br>
The goal is to make parallel corpora of different
languages based on this list of sentences.<br>
Each sentence on the list serves to check whether a
language has a given grammatical feature, and if so,
in what form the language expresses it.<br>
When creating each sentence, I tried to limit its
vocabulary to basic words that are found in most
languages, avoiding culture-specific words.<br>
I would appreciate it if you could have a look at
the attached file and advise what I should
add/remove/modify.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div name="messageSignatureSection">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
From Hong Kong, <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ian<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
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Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
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