<div dir="ltr">K'iche' Maya has a very rich system for this, described beautifully by James Mondloch in a paper that deserves to be far better known:<div><br></div><div><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Mondloch, James L. "K'e? s: Quiche naming." </span><i style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Journal of Mayan Linguistics</i><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> 2 (1980): 9-25.</span><br></div><div><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">The by-now familiar reciprocal address between grandparent and grandchild occurs, as expecte. But in addition the system projects further kinship relationships onto the designated grandchild. </span></div><div><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">So the young grandson can say "my wife" to denote "my grandmother". The system represents a general </span>logic of <span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">kinship mapping across generations, not just an isolated </span>idiom or <span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">naming practice.</span></div><div><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Best,</span></div><div><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Jack</span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 10:59 AM Anne Tamm <<a href="mailto:TammA@ceu.edu">TammA@ceu.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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Hi,</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Hungarian has <i style="font-size:12pt;font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-weight:inherit">kisanyám</i><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> my little mother,
but not typically in my urban sociolect.</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
A couple of years ago there was a long discussion of related lexicon items on child language mailing lists.</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
best</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Anne</div>
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<div id="gmail-m_6126496351175447883divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Michael Daniel <<a href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com" target="_blank">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 24, 2020 9:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> list, typology <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] addressing the daughter as Mummy</font>
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<div dir="ltr">Hi everybody.
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<div>I reported this as a reaction to the original request in a personal email, but now that there is so much wonderful data and reactions I might ask in the list: </div>
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<div>does anyone know of a pattern of address, formally both related and different to the one being discussed, where the apparently 'inverse use' of the term of address is placed inside a possessive construction, literally 'mother-Poss/Gen' addressing a child,
'aunt-Poss/Gen' to a nephew or niece etc. This occurs in (some parts of) Daghestan and I always wondered whether it was an adaptation / reinterpretation of the Near East / Georgian / etc pattern or an independent development. </div>
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<div>Michael Daniel</div>
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<div dir="ltr">пн, 24 авг. 2020 г. в 07:07, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>:<br>
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<p>As a footnote to Eitan's comments on Hebrew, I would add that the form <i>mama-le</i>, with the Yiddish-origin diminutive, is used not only by mothers addressing their children, but by extension also as an affectionate address term to persons of any gender,
age and parental status (as I myself can attest to, as the occasional fortunate addressee).<br>
</p>
<div>On 20/08/2020 08:22, Eitan Grossman wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">Hi all,
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<div>Modern Hebrew also has this phenomenon, e.g., <i>mami</i> or <i>mama</i> ('mom') and
<i>abuya</i> ('my father'). Its sources seem to be both Maghrebi Judeo-Arabic and Palestinian Arabic, but it also makes sense that it might also come from Kurdish via Neo-Aramaic. Interestingly, a common term is<i> aba-le</i> (father-DIM), which takes a Yiddish-origin
diminutive suffix on an Aramaic-origin noun, while the very use of the 'father' term for a child is patterned on Arabic.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In Beduin Arabic of the Negev, these reversed kin terms are extremely extensive and seem to apply to pretty much any kin relationship. Henkin has written about this a lot, e.g., Ch 10 of her <span style="font-family:Helvetica">2010. Negev Arabic: Dialectal,
Sociolinguistic, and Stylistic Variation. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz. It's also worth checking out her work on cursing, which can involve what looks like 'self-cursing' due to the kinship term reversal.</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-family:Helvetica">Eitan</span></div>
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<div dir="ltr">Eitan Grossman
<div>Associate Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
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<div>Chair, Department of Linguistics<br>
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<div>Hebrew University of Jerusalem</div>
<div>Tel: +972 2 588 3809</div>
<div>Fax: +972 2 588 1224</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 7:27 AM Nino Amiridze <<a href="mailto:nino.amiridze@gmail.com" target="_blank">nino.amiridze@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div>Dear Sergey,<br>
<br>
Georgian (Kartvelian) has the phenomenon. Young people may get addressed by their older relatives by the term that refers to the relatives themselves. For instance, if a grandmother addresses her grandson (say, Giorgi), she may address him by uttering (a) or
(b):<br>
<br>
(a) giorgi, modi chemtan!<br>
Giorgi, come <a href="http://to.me" target="_blank">to.me</a><br>
" Giorgi, come to me!"<br>
<br>
or<br>
<br>
(b) bebia/bebiko, modi chemtan!<br>
grandmother/granny, come to me<br>
Lit.: grandmother, come to me!<br>
"Giorgi, come to me!"<br>
<br>
This phenomenon is discussed in Boeder 1988 (<a href="http://www.staff.uni-oldenburg.de/winfried.boeder/download/52_Boeder_1988_Ueber_einige_Anredeformen_imKaukasus.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.staff.uni-oldenburg.de/winfried.boeder/download/52_Boeder_1988_Ueber_einige_Anredeformen_imKaukasus.pdf</a>),
where he mentions similar cases in Lebanese Arabic described in Ayoub 1964 and Southern Italian dialects by Spitzer 1928. In both cases, the phenomenon is known from baby talk, when grown ups try to lower themselves to the level of children. As a result, a
role substitution happens. Boeder brings Willis 1977 as a reference, according to which the role substitution is an important play when children and grown ups communicate in English baby talk.<br>
<br>
For me, as a native Georgian speaker, the explanation does not exactly make sense for Georgian. Rather, the address forms have always been a shortened forms of affectionate formulas:<br>
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bebia [genacvalos / shemogevlos], modi chemtan!<br>
grandmother [will.secrifice.herself.for.you], come to me</div>
<div>'"X, come to me" (where X is a name of a grandkid)<br>
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<div><br>
I wonder what other native speakers have to say about the role substitution in Georgian. And I would be curious to learn whether the mentioned languages or others illustrating the phenomenon can have the 'role mirroring' due to shortening of blessing formulas.<br>
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References:<br>
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Ayoub, Millicent R. 1964. Bi-polarity in Arabic kinship terms. In Horace G. Lunt (ed.). Proceedings of the Ninth International Congress of Linguists. The Hague: Mouton, pp. 1100-1106.<br>
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Boeder, Winfried, 1988. Über einige Anredeformen im Kaukasus. Georgika, Heft 11, pp. 11-20.<br>
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Spitzer, Leo, 1928. Über Personenvertauschung in der Ammensprache. In L. Spitzer, Stilstudien. Hueber, München, 1928, pp. 26-38.<br>
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Wills, Dorothy Davis, 1977. Participant deixis in English baby talk. In: C.E. Snow and Ch. A. Ferguson (eds.), Talking to Children. Language Input and Acquisition. Papers from a conference sponsored by the Committee on Sociolinguistics of the Social Science
Research Council (USA). Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, pp. 271-295.<br>
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Best regards,<br>
Nino</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 9:26 PM Sergey Loesov <<a href="mailto:sergeloesov@gmail.com" target="_blank">sergeloesov@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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Dear colleagues,</p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
In various cultures (those I know of happen to be mostly Islamic) the form of address can be copied by the addressee. Thus, when a daughter addresses her mother as “Mummy”, the mother often reciprocates, saying to the daughter something like “yes, Mummy”, or
“what, Mummy…” (Same of course with a son and his father.) </p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
In particular, I came across this kind of exchange in my fieldwork with Kurdish (Kurmanji) and some contemporary Aramaic varieties in Upper Mesopotamia and Syria, but this phenomenon is also current in the Soqotri language, an unwritten Semitic language spoken
on the Socotra Island in the Indian Ocean, southeast of Yemen. </p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Are we aware of explanations for this kind of usage? Are there cross-language studies of this kind of facts?</p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Thank you very much!</p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Sergey</p>
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<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">Dr. Nino Amiridze<br>
<br>
E-mail: <a href="mailto:Nino.Amiridze@gmail.com" target="_blank">Nino.Amiridze@gmail.com</a><br>
WWW: <a href="https://sites.google.com/site/ninoamiridze/" target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/site/ninoamiridze/</a></div>
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<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><pre cols="72"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">=======================================<br></font></pre><pre cols="72"><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">John W. DuBois
Professor of Linguistics
University of California, Santa Barbara
Santa Barbara, California 93106
USA
Email: <a href="mailto:dubois@ucsb.edu" target="_blank">dubois@ucsb.edu</a>
</font><span style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Zoom room: </span><font face="tahoma, sans-serif"><a href="https://ucsb.zoom.us/my/dubois" target="_blank">https://ucsb.zoom.us/my/dubois</a></font><br></pre><pre cols="72"><span style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Web page: </span><a href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/faculty/dubois/" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif" target="_blank">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/faculty/dubois/<br></a><br></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div>