<div dir="ltr">Dear All,<div>I wouldn't like to enlarge the discussion to topics which are similar to the debated question here (as it often happens in the linguistlist !). However, the two nice examples from the
<i>Hitopadeśa </i>quoted by Siva Kalyan seem very similar to the rhetorical figure called 'similitudo' (Engl. <i>simile</i>), much used by poets from Homer on. Cp. Milton's <i>Paradise Lost, </i>where the source domain (<i>the Wolf</i>) precedes the target domain (<i>the grand Thie</i>f): precisely as 'tiger' and 'water' precede 'person' and 'heart' in the Korean proverbs .</div><div><div><div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b><i>As</i></b> when a prowling Wolf,</span><div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block">Whom hunger drives to seek new haunt for prey,</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block">. . . . . . .</span><br style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block"><b><i>So </i></b>clomb this first grand Thief into God's Fold </span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block">Vergil and Dante are plenty of metaphorical similes introduced by <i><b>sicut </b>X, <b>ita </b>Y </i>and,respectively,<i> <b>come </b>X, <b>così</b>/<b>similemente </b>Y </i>(as X, so /similarly Y) Cp. <i>Parad</i>. 23, 1-10 etc.</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Best, </span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Paolo</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat</span><br></div><div><div>Istituto Universitario Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</div><div>Accademia dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br><div>'Academia Europaea'</div><div>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</div></div></div><div>piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</div><div>##39 0382 27027</div><div>347 044 98 44<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno ven 18 giu 2021 alle ore 18:51 David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>Two well-known poetic forms which place the source before the
target (like Korean) are:</p>
<p>1. The Malay pantun — a ubiquitous quatrain form in which the
first couplet presents the source while the second couplet follows
with the target.</p>
<p>2. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey.</p>
<p>In contrast, both orders are attested in</p>
<p>3. Virgil's Aeneid</p>
<p>SOURCES<br>
For the Malay Pantun, this feature is pervasive and almost
definitional of the genre. For brief discussion see Gil (@). For
Homer and Virgil, the source is a personal communication from
Yeshayahu Shen, alluding to a PhD dissertation from the Hebrew
University of Jerusalem, whose precise reference he was
unfortunately unable to provide.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Gil, David (1993)
"'Il pleut doucement sur la ville':<span>
</span>The Rhythm of a Metaphor", <i>Poetics
Today</i> 14:49-82.</span></p>
<p>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 18/06/2021 15:41, Siva Kalyan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
At least some Sanskrit proverbs have the "metaphorical subjects"
preceding the "metaphorical objects". The example that comes to
mind is the following:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>varam eko guṇī putro na ca mūrkhaśatair api</div>
<div>ekaścandrastamo hanti na ca tārāgaṇair api</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>“A single intelligent son is preferable to a hundred
fools;</div>
<div>[just as] the sun is not blotted out by the
multitude of stars.”</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also the following:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>na daivam iti saṃcintya tyajed udyogam ātmanaḥ</div>
<div>anudyogena kas tailaṃ tilebhyaḥ prāptum arhati?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>“Do not abandon your work, thinking it is
foreordained by fate;</div>
<div>[for] who is capable of obtaining oil from sesame
plants without effort?”</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(Both of these examples are from the 12th-century
text <i>Hitopadeśa</i><span style="font-style:normal">.)</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal">In
addition, all the examples of metaphorical proverbs in Tamil
that I can think of also have the subject-before-object order.
(I don’t remember the original, but one of them goes along the
lines of, “Don’t think that only your relatives can help you;
the poison that you are born with may threaten your life, but
the herb that saves you may come from a distant mountain”.)</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal">At the
very least, there are probably strong areal tendencies here. I
wouldn't be surprised if Sinospheric languages pattern one
way, and Indospheric languages pattern the other way.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal">By the
way, I wouldn’t recommend using “subject” and “object” to talk
about metaphor, given how overloaded these terms are already.
I think the standard way of talking about metaphors is in
terms of “source domain” (= your “object”) and “target domain”
(= your “subject”).</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal">Siva</span></div>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 18 Jun 2021, at 2:08 pm, JOO, Ian [Student]
<<a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk" target="_blank">ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
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<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">Dear all,</span><br>
<br>
<span>in Korean proverbs consisting
of two parallel sentences, the metaphorical object
precedes the metaphorical subject:</span></div>
<ul>
<li><span>호랑이는 죽어서 가죽을 남기고, 사람은 죽어서
이름을 남긴다. A tiger leaves its hide when it dies, and
a person leaves their name when they die.</span></li>
<li><span>열 길 물 속은 알아도 한 길 사람 속은 모른다.
You can see through ten feet deep water, but you
cannot see through a one foot deep heart.</span></li>
</ul>
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">In these
proverbs, the metaphorical objects (tiger, water)
precede the metaphorical subjects (person, heart).</span><br>
<span>I have been assuming that
this is the “natural” way of making a parallel
comparison, until I came across Mongolian proverbs
today that have the opposite structure: </span></div>
<ul>
<li><span>Хүн ёс дагана, нохой яс
дагана. A person follows traditions, and a dog
follows bones.</span></li>
<li><span>Уур биеийг зовоодог, уул
морийг зовоодог. The anger torments the body, and
the mountain torments the horse.</span></li>
</ul>
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">I assume here
that the person and the body are being compared to
the dog and the horse (and not the other way
around).</span><br>
<span>Is this metaphorical subject
- metaphorical object order common in proverbs of
other languages as well?</span><br>
</div>
</div>
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From Hong Kong,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
</div>
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<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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