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<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:Times New Roman">Dear all,</span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">thank you for your insightful comments. It is pleasant to know that this is a highly variable factor across different languages in the world. It might be interesting to do an overall survey to see if there are any areal
patterns.</span></div>
</div>
<div name="messageSignatureSection"><br>
Regards,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
</div>
<div name="messageReplySection">On 20 Jun 2021, 11:02 AM +0800, MM Jocelyne Fernandez <mmjocelynefern@gmail.com>, wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="border-left-color: grey; border-left-width: thin; border-left-style: solid; margin: 5px 5px;padding-left: 10px;">
<p>Dear All,</p>
<p></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><font size="+1"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US">Studying at different periods parallelism in oral tradition, I would like to quote a few examples from a
special corpus of Balto-Finnic proverbs originally collected by Matti Kuusi, They show that, in the same Cirumbaltic area, parallelism is a constant feature of proverbs, but both orders source-target are found, with variants between neighboring languages as
well as within one and the same language.</span></font></p>
<font size="+1"></font>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"></span>Finnish</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Jos on tiassä tilaa,
<u>kyl</u> on virsus<u>kin</u> varaa</i></span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US">“If there is on the road enough space,
<u>yes</u> there is in the birch-bark shoe room <u>too</u>”</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"></span>Carelian</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Jos on vartta viršušša<u>ki</u>, on<u>pa</u> šuolla<u>ki</u>
šijoa</i></span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US">“If there is room in the birch-bark shoe
<u>too</u>, there is <u>indeed</u> space enough on the road <u>too</u>”.</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><font size="+1"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US">Besides a reversed order, a clear variable is the degree of dialogical style, Finnish proverbs using more
Discourse Particles:</span></font></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"></span>Votic</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Kuza tetšijäd, siäl nätšijäD</i></span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US">“Where actor, there witness”</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"></span>Finnish</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"></span></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><u><span style="mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt">Kyl</span></u></i>
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt">siin on näkijä kun tekijä<u>ki</u></span></i></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US">«
<u>Yes</u> there is witness when actor <u>too</u>”</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"><font size="+1"><br>
</font></span></span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"><font size="+1"></font></span><font size="+1">Finally, this “source-target” relation illustrates
a problem of Information structuring: even in the formalized style of paremiological genre, the rhematic clause can precede the thematic one, as if often the case of conditional and comparative clauses in ordinary language.</font></span></p>
<font size="+1"></font>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US">SOURCES:<br>
</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US">• Kuusi Matti (ed.), 1985,
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Proverbia Septentrionalia, Balto-Finnic Proverb Types with Russian, Baltic, German and Scandinavian Parallels</i>, Helsinki, Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia, FFC Communications, 236.</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt">• Fernandez-Vest M.M.Jocelyne, 1994,
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Les particules énonciatives dans la construction du discours</i> (Proverbe et dialogue, 34-44), Paris, PUF, Linguistique nouvelle.</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US">• Fernandez-Vest, M.M.Jocelyne, 2015,
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Detachments for Cohesion. Toward an information grammar of oral languages</i>, Berlin/Munich/Boston, De Gruyter Mouton (EALT 56).</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="Texte" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US">Best<br>
</span></p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 19/06/2021 à 13:00, paolo Ramat a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAEaecYHGPh22hgJ1qi0zB1vFdu4ymH_OeNrGNGkv7QFn1z2S7w@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">Dear All,
<div>I wouldn't like to enlarge the discussion to topics which are similar to the debated question here (as it often happens in the linguistlist !). However, the two nice examples from the
<i>Hitopadeśa</i> quoted by Siva Kalyan seem very similar to the rhetorical figure called 'similitudo' (Engl.
<i>simile</i>), much used by poets from Homer on. Cp. Milton's <i>Paradise Lost,</i> where the source domain (<i>the Wolf</i>) precedes the target domain (<i>the grand Thie</i>f): precisely as 'tiger' and 'water' precede 'person' and 'heart' in the Korean
proverbs .</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b><i>As</i></b> when a prowling Wolf,</span>
<div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block">Whom hunger drives to seek new haunt for prey,</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block">. . . . . . .</span><br style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block"><b><i>So</i></b> clomb this first grand Thief into God's Fold </span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block">Vergil and Dante are plenty of metaphorical similes introduced by
<i><b>sicut</b> X, <b>ita</b> Y</i> and,respectively,<i> <b>come</b> X, <b>così</b>/<b>similemente </b> Y</i> (as X, so /similarly Y) Cp.
<i>Parad</i>. 23, 1-10 etc.</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;display:inline-block"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Best, </span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Paolo</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat</span><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Istituto Universitario Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</div>
<div>Accademia dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br>
<div>'Academia Europaea'</div>
<div>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</div>
<div>##39 0382 27027</div>
<div>347 044 98 44<br>
</div>
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</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno ven 18 giu 2021 alle ore 18:51 David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>Two well-known poetic forms which place the source before the target (like Korean) are:</p>
<p>1. The Malay pantun — a ubiquitous quatrain form in which the first couplet presents the source while the second couplet follows with the target.</p>
<p>2. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey.</p>
<p>In contrast, both orders are attested in</p>
<p>3. Virgil's Aeneid</p>
<p>SOURCES<br>
For the Malay Pantun, this feature is pervasive and almost definitional of the genre. For brief discussion see Gil (@). For Homer and Virgil, the source is a personal communication from Yeshayahu Shen, alluding to a PhD dissertation from the Hebrew University
of Jerusalem, whose precise reference he was unfortunately unable to provide.</p>
<p></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US">Gil, David (1993) "'Il pleut doucement sur la ville':<span> </span> The Rhythm of a Metaphor",
<i>Poetics Today</i> 14:49-82.</span></p>
<p></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 18/06/2021 15:41, Siva Kalyan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">At least some Sanskrit proverbs have the "metaphorical subjects" preceding the "metaphorical objects". The example that comes to mind is the following:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>varam eko guṇī putro na ca mūrkhaśatair api</div>
<div>ekaścandrastamo hanti na ca tārāgaṇair api</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>“A single intelligent son is preferable to a hundred fools;</div>
<div>[just as] the sun is not blotted out by the multitude of stars.”</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also the following:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>na daivam iti saṃcintya tyajed udyogam ātmanaḥ</div>
<div>anudyogena kas tailaṃ tilebhyaḥ prāptum arhati?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>“Do not abandon your work, thinking it is foreordained by fate;</div>
<div>[for] who is capable of obtaining oil from sesame plants without effort?”</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(Both of these examples are from the 12th-century text <i>Hitopadeśa</i><span style="font-style:normal">.)</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal">In addition, all the examples of metaphorical proverbs in Tamil that I can think of also have the subject-before-object order. (I don’t remember the original, but one of them goes along the lines of, “Don’t think that only
your relatives can help you; the poison that you are born with may threaten your life, but the herb that saves you may come from a distant mountain”.)</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal">At the very least, there are probably strong areal tendencies here. I wouldn't be surprised if Sinospheric languages pattern one way, and Indospheric languages pattern the other way.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal">By the way, I wouldn’t recommend using “subject” and “object” to talk about metaphor, given how overloaded these terms are already. I think the standard way of talking about metaphors is in terms of “source domain” (= your
“object”) and “target domain” (= your “subject”).</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-style:normal">Siva</span></div>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 18 Jun 2021, at 2:08 pm, JOO, Ian [Student] <<a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk</a>> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div name="messageBodySection" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">Dear all,</span><br>
<br>
<span>in Korean proverbs consisting of two parallel sentences, the metaphorical object precedes the metaphorical subject:</span></div>
<ul>
<li><span>호랑이는 죽어서 가죽을 남기고, 사람은 죽어서 이름을 남긴다. A tiger leaves its hide when it dies, and a person leaves their name when they die.</span></li><li><span>열 길 물 속은 알아도 한 길 사람 속은 모른다. You can see through ten feet deep water, but you cannot see through a one foot deep heart.</span></li></ul>
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">In these proverbs, the metaphorical objects (tiger, water) precede the metaphorical subjects (person, heart).</span><br>
<span>I have been assuming that this is the “natural” way of making a parallel comparison, until I came across Mongolian proverbs today that have the opposite structure: </span></div>
<ul>
<li><span>Хүн ёс дагана, нохой яс дагана. A person follows traditions, and a dog follows bones.</span></li><li><span>Уур биеийг зовоодог, уул морийг зовоодог. The anger torments the body, and the mountain torments the horse.</span></li></ul>
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">I assume here that the person and the body are being compared to the dog and the horse (and not the other way around).</span><br>
<span>Is this metaphorical subject - metaphorical object order common in proverbs of other languages as well?</span><br>
</div>
</div>
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<br>
From Hong Kong,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
</div>
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<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></div>
</blockquote>
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<br>
</div>
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<pre>_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
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<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
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<div class="moz-signature">--<br>
Prof. M.M.Jocelyne FERNANDEZ-VEST<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-signature">CNRS & Université Sorbonne Nouvelle</div>
</blockquote>
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