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Dear all,<br>
<br>
It is true that each language has its own categories (so we'll have
different definitions for different languages), and that categories
are generally set up in order to facilitate generalizations.<br>
<br>
But I don't think that that is their "sole raison d'être" – some
comparative concepts exist because there are well-known terms that
everyone uses. For example, everyone talks about "planets", so it's
useful to have a precise astronomical definition (which was recently
changed, so that it no longer includes Pluto). And everyone talks
about "mountains", so some organizations have official definitions
of what a mountain is
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain#Definition">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain#Definition</a>).<br>
<br>
I would say that "personal pronoun" is similar – we use this term
(as a general/comparative concept) all the time and hope that others
understand us, and since linguistics is a technical context, it's
not unreasonable to expect a precise definition of a term. There's
no strong reason to think that "personal pronoun" corresponds to
anything natural in the world, but it's still useful to have a clear
definition (if only to make us aware that it's not a very natural
concept).<br>
<br>
So I no longer think that a comparative concept *must* earn its
status by leading to correlations. Some comparative concepts exist
because we have well-known terms, and for these terms, the task is
to provide *retro-definitions* that fit with as many of previous
usages as possible (I talked about this in more detail in this
paper: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/005489">https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/005489</a>).<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 08.07.21 um 17:43 schrieb Edith A
Moravcsik:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Dear Paolo,<br>
<br>
Many thanks for your comments! It is reassuring for me to
know that you agree with me.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">All the
best,<br>
<br>
edith<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Paolo Ramat
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paoram@unipv.it"><paoram@unipv.it></a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 08, 2021 10:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Edith A Moravcsik <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:edith@uwm.edu"><edith@uwm.edu></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Martin Haspelmath
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de"><martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de></a>; list, typology
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Definition of “personal pronoun"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">you don't miss anything , dear Edith. I
have written on many occasions that a definition is neither
true nor false : it is on the contrary useful or useless
to understand the manifold varietes we are faced with when
dealing with languages.Pronominal personal foms may have
very different origins , such as Port. voce ( e with
circumflex) which can be used with the 3rd and (
particularly in Bresil) also with the 2nd verbal form. In
spite of its etymology, it fits the randomly properties
conventionally chosen for the category 'personal pronoun'.
This fitting confirms that the random choice has proved as
useful. Of course, the same can apply to the Kor. word for
"brother", unless it shows peculiarities that do not fit
with the 'random definition' we have adopted starting from
an onomasiological point of view. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best , Paolo <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Il Mer 7 Lug 2021, 19:18 Edith A
Moravcsik <<a href="mailto:edith@uwm.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">edith@uwm.edu</a>>
ha scritto:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New"">Do we need to formulate a single
definition for personal pronouns for any one
language? And, similarly, should we decide on the
single definition of the comparative concept of
personal pronouns for comparing languages?
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New"">The sole raison d’ẽtre of a category is
its usefulness in facilitating generalizations. If
it turns out that a particular definition of
personal pronouns in, say, Korean is useful for that
language since it represents a cluster of
properties, we may use the label “personal pronoun”
for that cluster – or we may of course choose any
other label. Personal pronouns defined in this way
may also have properties in common with other things
such as nouns – e.g. in Korean, the noun ‘brother’
can also be used as a pronoun; and in many languages
the plural of the third person pronoun follows the
nominal pattern. This does not mean that we have to
discard the original definition used for that
language: we simply state the properties shared by
other things.<br>
<br>
The same way, a comparative concept – i.e. a tool
for crosslinguistic comparison – will earn its
status by leading to correlations: that is, whether
the particular definitional property chosen implies
or implied by other properties. Just as in
describing a single language we can start out with
any definitions, the same way we can try comparing
languages in terms of any concepts. We do not know
ahead of inquiry what will work - this is an
empirical question. There may be alternative
comparative concepts within the same semantic domain
each allowing for some correlates but not others.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New"">All in all, whether for analyzing
individual languages or for comparing languages, the
definition of a category or concept can be quite
randomly chosen to begin with. Whether the
definition stands or falls will be an empirical
issue determined by the existence or non-existence
of property clusters emerging from that definition.
<br>
<br>
Is this correct? Or am I missing something?<br>
<br>
Edith Moravcsik<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Lingtyp <<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Martin Haspelmath<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 07, 2021 6:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Definition of
“personal pronoun"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Here's
a new version of the definition that addresses Ian's
point about Korean:<br>
<br>
"A personal pronoun is a form that (i) denotes a
speech role (speaker/producer and/or
hearer/comprehender) OR that is an anaphoric form
which does not contain a noun AND (ii) that can be
used in a complement clause coreferentially with a
matrix clause argument."<br>
<br>
By saying "anaphoric form <b>that does not contain a
noun</b>", we exclude the Korean case where
'brother' can be used coreferentially. Maybe one
should add "ordinary noun" or "a noun that can be used
indefinitely", because someone might claim, for
example, that Spanish "usted" is still a noun (e.g.
because it has the noun-like plural "usted-es").<br>
<br>
Guillaume Segerer remarked that "pronoun" implies that
it is not a noun, but my proposed definition of
"personal pronoun" does not say that a personal
pronoun is "a kind of pronoun", because I don't know
how to define "pronoun" (with such traditional terms,
an extensional definition is often all we can give,
e.g. "<i>pronoun</i> is a cover term for
<i>personal pronoun</i>, <i>interrogative pronoun</i>,
...")<br>
<br>
Re Mira's point about deictic uses of 3rd-person
personal pronouns: I would say that this is not
definitional – if a 3rd-person form cannot be used
anaphorically, it will not be called "personal
pronoun". But of course, personal pronouns often have
other uses as well in particular languages.
Comparative concepts rarely map perfectly onto
language-particular categories.<br>
<br>
Guillaume also mentions person indexes (which are
often included in personal pronoun charts), and this
led me to look again at what I said in my 2013 paper
about person indexes: I distinguish between
cross-indexes, gramm-indexes, and pro-indexes, and the
latter are actually included in "pronoun" (contrasting
with "free pronouns"). So I now say that "a personal
pronoun is a form that..." (not "a personal pronoun is
a free form that...").<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Am
06.07.21 um 20:48 schrieb Mira Ariel:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">But what about (not so
common, but attested) deictic references
(first-mention) to 3<sup>rd</sup> person using
"personal pronouns"?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Mira</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b>
Lingtyp [<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Martin Haspelmath<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 6, 2021 1:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Definition of
“personal pronoun"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maybe
the following will work:<br>
<br>
"A personal pronoun is a free form that (i) denotes
a speech role (speaker/producer and/or
hearer/comprehender) OR that is used as an anaphoric
form AND (ii) that can be used in a complement
clause coreferentially with a matrix clause
argument."<br>
<br>
This is a disjunctive definition that brings
together locuphoric forms ('I', 'we', 'you') and
3rd-person anaphoric (or "endophoric") forms,
following the Western tradition (but not following
any kind of compelling logic).<br>
<br>
It seems that personal pronouns need to be delimited
from three types of somewhat doubtful forms:<br>
<br>
– person indexes (I do not include bound forms under
"personal pronoun" here, following my 2013 paper on
person indexes:
<a
href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzenodo.org%2Frecord%2F1294059&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7Cc7ca53d9bdc74028925508d942239270%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637613542830617432%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ZtEIpJozHjX0eahAvlrusANf%2BvyMuoMSVz%2Ff1Kz98E8%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://zenodo.org/record/1294059</a>)<br>
– demonstratives<br>
– titles like "Your Majesty"<br>
<br>
I think that if a language has a form like
"that-one" or "your-majesty" that can be used
coreferentially in a complement clause, one will
regard it as a personal pronoun:<br>
<br>
(a) "My sister(i) thinks that that-one(i) has an
answer."<br>
(b) "Does your-majesty(i) think that your-majesty(i)
has an answer?"<br>
<br>
In German, the polite second-person pronoun "Sie"
(which has Third-Person syntax) can be used in (b),
but the demonstrative "die" can hardly be used in
(a), so it would not count as a personal pronoun
(yet). However, in Hindi-Urdu and Mongolian, as
mentioned by Ian, the demonstrative can be used in
this way (I think), so it would count as a personal
pronoun.<br>
<br>
I don't think we need the general notion of "person"
to define "personal pronoun". Wikipedia's current
definition is therefore quite confusing (<a
href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPersonal_pronoun&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7Cc7ca53d9bdc74028925508d942239270%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637613542830627425%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=2jxkLpfMNSxhaCGHsTbo%2F3s1x0npD%2FhYf7GP4DyFpUs%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_pronoun</a>).<br>
<br>
Thanks for this interesting challenge, Ian! It seems
to me that quite a few of our traditional terms CAN
be defined, but their definitions are not obvious at
all (and the textbooks don't usually give the
definitions).<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Am
06.07.21 um 06:53 schrieb JOO, Ian [Student]:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div name="messageBodySection">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Dear
typologists,<br>
<br>
I’m having a hard time trying to find a
definition of a “personal pronoun”.<br>
One definition is that a personal pronoun
refers to a literal person, a human being. But
then again, non-human pronouns like English <em><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">it</span></em> are
also frequently included as a personal
pronoun.<br>
Another definition seems to be that “personal”
refers to a grammatical person and not a
literal person. Thus, <em><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">it</span></em> refers
to the (non-human) 3rd person, therefore it is
a personal pronoun.<br>
But then again, demonstratives, interrogative,
and indefinite pronouns also refer to the 3rd
person. (This <em><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">is</span></em> a
book, who <em><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">is </span></em>that
man, anything <em><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">is </span></em>possible)
Then are they also personal pronouns?<br>
What’s the clearest definition of a personal
pronoun, if any?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div name="messageSignatureSection">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
From Hong Kong, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Ian<o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lingtyp mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Martin Haspelmath<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-04103 Leipzig<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shh.mpg.de%2Femployees%2F42385%2F25522&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7Cc7ca53d9bdc74028925508d942239270%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637613542830637422%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=gFx8ZWGDEG7D5HQhsFHEo1aQRX88d7XSD4t%2Bb2p5bBE%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Martin Haspelmath<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-04103 Leipzig<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shh.mpg.de%2Femployees%2F42385%2F25522&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7Cc7ca53d9bdc74028925508d942239270%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637613542830647413%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Hu28qBYmr6dNrL57FWXE%2F3kmHnU%2FWRGWxwM3I%2FtsrIQ%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a></pre>
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