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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Dear All,<br>
<br>
I agree with Martin: in addition to serving as essential tools in individual grammars and in crosslinguistic comparisons, category labels also have a social function simply facilitating understanding in informal discussions. In such cases, it is useful if categories
have definitions but these definitions do not have to be based on property clusters. Retrodefinitions simply need to fit in with historical tradition and general use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"><br>
However, when categories are used in grammars and crosslinguistic studies, they do need to stand for clusters of properties to justify their use.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Edith Moravcsik<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Martin Haspelmath<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 08, 2021 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> list, typology <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Definition of “personal pronoun"<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dear all,<br>
<br>
It is true that each language has its own categories (so we'll have different definitions for different languages), and that categories are generally set up in order to facilitate generalizations.<br>
<br>
But I don't think that that is their "sole raison d'être" – some comparative concepts exist because there are well-known terms that everyone uses. For example, everyone talks about "planets", so it's useful to have a precise astronomical definition (which was
recently changed, so that it no longer includes Pluto). And everyone talks about "mountains", so some organizations have official definitions of what a mountain is (<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMountain%23Definition&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7C64836daea2484f9038ba08d9422c9b05%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637613581647553799%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4oPA2JOIJriu1f2OKi43Lbp3w1yjU65y8j0zJoYj0aA%3D&reserved=0">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain#Definition</a>).<br>
<br>
I would say that "personal pronoun" is similar – we use this term (as a general/comparative concept) all the time and hope that others understand us, and since linguistics is a technical context, it's not unreasonable to expect a precise definition of a term.
There's no strong reason to think that "personal pronoun" corresponds to anything natural in the world, but it's still useful to have a clear definition (if only to make us aware that it's not a very natural concept).<br>
<br>
So I no longer think that a comparative concept *must* earn its status by leading to correlations. Some comparative concepts exist because we have well-known terms, and for these terms, the task is to provide *retro-definitions* that fit with as many of previous
usages as possible (I talked about this in more detail in this paper: <a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fling.auf.net%2Flingbuzz%2F005489&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7C64836daea2484f9038ba08d9422c9b05%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637613581647563790%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=az1CQmc2rshhpzLz1%2B1pKb%2F2VLm2U1RtX4Nmfsv0iBk%3D&reserved=0">
https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/005489</a>).<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Am 08.07.21 um 17:43 schrieb Edith A Moravcsik:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">Dear Paolo,<br>
<br>
Many thanks for your comments! It is reassuring for me to know that you agree with me.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt">All the best,<br>
<br>
edith<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Paolo Ramat <a href="mailto:paoram@unipv.it"><paoram@unipv.it></a>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 08, 2021 10:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Edith A Moravcsik <a href="mailto:edith@uwm.edu"><edith@uwm.edu></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Martin Haspelmath <a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de"><martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de></a>; list, typology
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Definition of “personal pronoun"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">you don't miss anything , dear Edith. I have written on many occasions that a definition is neither true nor false : it is on the contrary useful or useless to understand the manifold varietes we are faced with when dealing with languages.Pronominal
personal foms may have very different origins , such as Port. voce ( e with circumflex) which can be used with the 3rd and ( particularly in Bresil) also with the 2nd verbal form. In spite of its etymology, it fits the randomly properties conventionally
chosen for the category 'personal pronoun'. This fitting confirms that the random choice has proved as useful. Of course, the same can apply to the Kor. word for "brother", unless it shows peculiarities that do not fit with the 'random definition' we have
adopted starting from an onomasiological point of view. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best , Paolo <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Il Mer 7 Lug 2021, 19:18 Edith A Moravcsik <<a href="mailto:edith@uwm.edu" target="_blank">edith@uwm.edu</a>> ha scritto:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New",serif">Do we need to formulate a single definition for personal pronouns for any one language? And, similarly, should we
decide on the single definition of the comparative concept of personal pronouns for comparing languages?
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New",serif">The sole raison d’ẽtre of a category is its usefulness in facilitating generalizations. If it turns out that a particular
definition of personal pronouns in, say, Korean is useful for that language since it represents a cluster of properties, we may use the label “personal pronoun” for that cluster – or we may of course choose any other label. Personal pronouns defined in this
way may also have properties in common with other things such as nouns – e.g. in Korean, the noun ‘brother’ can also be used as a pronoun; and in many languages the plural of the third person pronoun follows the nominal pattern. This does not mean that we
have to discard the original definition used for that language: we simply state the properties shared by other things.<br>
<br>
The same way, a comparative concept – i.e. a tool for crosslinguistic comparison – will earn its status by leading to correlations: that is, whether the particular definitional property chosen implies or implied by other properties. Just as in describing a
single language we can start out with any definitions, the same way we can try comparing languages in terms of any concepts. We do not know ahead of inquiry what will work - this is an empirical question. There may be alternative comparative concepts within
the same semantic domain each allowing for some correlates but not others.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New",serif">All in all, whether for analyzing individual languages or for comparing languages, the definition of a category or concept
can be quite randomly chosen to begin with. Whether the definition stands or falls will be an empirical issue determined by the existence or non-existence of property clusters emerging from that definition.
<br>
<br>
Is this correct? Or am I missing something?<br>
<br>
Edith Moravcsik<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Martin Haspelmath<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 07, 2021 6:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Definition of “personal pronoun"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Here's a new version of the definition that addresses Ian's point about Korean:<br>
<br>
"A personal pronoun is a form that (i) denotes a speech role (speaker/producer and/or hearer/comprehender) OR that is an anaphoric form which does not contain a noun AND (ii) that can be used in a complement clause coreferentially with a matrix clause argument."<br>
<br>
By saying "anaphoric form <b>that does not contain a noun</b>", we exclude the Korean case where 'brother' can be used coreferentially. Maybe one should add "ordinary noun" or "a noun that can be used indefinitely", because someone might claim, for example,
that Spanish "usted" is still a noun (e.g. because it has the noun-like plural "usted-es").<br>
<br>
Guillaume Segerer remarked that "pronoun" implies that it is not a noun, but my proposed definition of "personal pronoun" does not say that a personal pronoun is "a kind of pronoun", because I don't know how to define "pronoun" (with such traditional terms,
an extensional definition is often all we can give, e.g. "<i>pronoun</i> is a cover term for
<i>personal pronoun</i>, <i>interrogative pronoun</i>, ...")<br>
<br>
Re Mira's point about deictic uses of 3rd-person personal pronouns: I would say that this is not definitional – if a 3rd-person form cannot be used anaphorically, it will not be called "personal pronoun". But of course, personal pronouns often have other uses
as well in particular languages. Comparative concepts rarely map perfectly onto language-particular categories.<br>
<br>
Guillaume also mentions person indexes (which are often included in personal pronoun charts), and this led me to look again at what I said in my 2013 paper about person indexes: I distinguish between cross-indexes, gramm-indexes, and pro-indexes, and the latter
are actually included in "pronoun" (contrasting with "free pronouns"). So I now say that "a personal pronoun is a form that..." (not "a personal pronoun is a free form that...").<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Am 06.07.21 um 20:48 schrieb Mira Ariel:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">But what about (not so common, but attested) deictic references (first-mention) to 3<sup>rd</sup> person using "personal pronouns"?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Mira</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp [<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Martin Haspelmath<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 6, 2021 1:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Definition of “personal pronoun"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maybe the following will work:<br>
<br>
"A personal pronoun is a free form that (i) denotes a speech role (speaker/producer and/or hearer/comprehender) OR that is used as an anaphoric form AND (ii) that can be used in a complement clause coreferentially with a matrix clause argument."<br>
<br>
This is a disjunctive definition that brings together locuphoric forms ('I', 'we', 'you') and 3rd-person anaphoric (or "endophoric") forms, following the Western tradition (but not following any kind of compelling logic).<br>
<br>
It seems that personal pronouns need to be delimited from three types of somewhat doubtful forms:<br>
<br>
– person indexes (I do not include bound forms under "personal pronoun" here, following my 2013 paper on person indexes:
<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzenodo.org%2Frecord%2F1294059&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7C64836daea2484f9038ba08d9422c9b05%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637613581647573786%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=r4o5ne9PsrRTMIx39QbCOPiJZl3gKySyQeW3GbO6%2FBQ%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
https://zenodo.org/record/1294059</a>)<br>
– demonstratives<br>
– titles like "Your Majesty"<br>
<br>
I think that if a language has a form like "that-one" or "your-majesty" that can be used coreferentially in a complement clause, one will regard it as a personal pronoun:<br>
<br>
(a) "My sister(i) thinks that that-one(i) has an answer."<br>
(b) "Does your-majesty(i) think that your-majesty(i) has an answer?"<br>
<br>
In German, the polite second-person pronoun "Sie" (which has Third-Person syntax) can be used in (b), but the demonstrative "die" can hardly be used in (a), so it would not count as a personal pronoun (yet). However, in Hindi-Urdu and Mongolian, as mentioned
by Ian, the demonstrative can be used in this way (I think), so it would count as a personal pronoun.<br>
<br>
I don't think we need the general notion of "person" to define "personal pronoun". Wikipedia's current definition is therefore quite confusing (<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPersonal_pronoun&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7C64836daea2484f9038ba08d9422c9b05%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637613581647573786%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=mNhxslgw%2Fuz1S69HrkBr1lUU0qK%2BJIdFuwfri%2B8kMOM%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_pronoun</a>).<br>
<br>
Thanks for this interesting challenge, Ian! It seems to me that quite a few of our traditional terms CAN be defined, but their definitions are not obvious at all (and the textbooks don't usually give the definitions).<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Am 06.07.21 um 06:53 schrieb JOO, Ian [Student]:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
I’m having a hard time trying to find a definition of a “personal pronoun”.<br>
One definition is that a personal pronoun refers to a literal person, a human being. But then again, non-human pronouns like English <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">it</span></em> are also frequently included as a personal pronoun.<br>
Another definition seems to be that “personal” refers to a grammatical person and not a literal person. Thus, <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">it</span></em> refers to the (non-human) 3rd person, therefore it is a personal pronoun.<br>
But then again, demonstratives, interrogative, and indefinite pronouns also refer to the 3rd person. (This <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">is</span></em> a book, who <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">is </span></em>that man,
anything <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">is </span></em>possible) Then are they also personal pronouns?<br>
What’s the clearest definition of a personal pronoun, if any?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
From Hong Kong, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Ian<o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Martin Haspelmath<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-04103 Leipzig<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shh.mpg.de%2Femployees%2F42385%2F25522&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7C64836daea2484f9038ba08d9422c9b05%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637613581647593767%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HfsWQE6Ewt8IHnFGxEEU4lIxL%2BOqKTQZ4Y73wROr6JM%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Martin Haspelmath<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-04103 Leipzig<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shh.mpg.de%2Femployees%2F42385%2F25522&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7C64836daea2484f9038ba08d9422c9b05%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637613581647593767%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HfsWQE6Ewt8IHnFGxEEU4lIxL%2BOqKTQZ4Y73wROr6JM%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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Lingtyp mailing list<br>
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</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Martin Haspelmath<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-04103 Leipzig<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shh.mpg.de%2Femployees%2F42385%2F25522&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7C64836daea2484f9038ba08d9422c9b05%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637613581647613760%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=MQrmyRWQTxVT27PuxMlcrVl%2BcI3HzPQJpcMRBM6n2OM%3D&reserved=0">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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