<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body>Dear Riccardo,<br><br>I'm not entirely sure either, but that's also the term Bhat uses in his book "Pronouns", which also devotes a fair amount of text on answering a lot of the questions people have been bringing up here.<br><br>It's not a perfect book, but what is? I personally found it very good at highlighting the differences between personal pronouns and proforms for instance, amongst others, delving into cross-linguistic semantic and morphosyntactic variation.<br><br>I highly recommend it to those who haven't read it or are unaware of its existence, as it might answer some of the questions brought up. Bhat does an excellent job trying to answer the question of "What is a pronoun?" and it's a shame the book didn't get more recognition. <br><br>Best,<br><br>Don <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On July 9, 2021 4:55:40 PM GMT+03:00, Riccardo Giomi <rgiomi@campus.ul.pt> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear all,</div><div><br></div><div>This is my first ever post in this discussion list, so first of all, hi everyone!</div><div><br></div><div>Just a quick reaction to Martin's note that</div><div><br></div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US">(iv) “Pronouns”
are often taken to be “noun-like” (because of the etymology of
“pro-noun”), but
I include interrogative adverbs like “when” and demonstrative
adverbs like “there”
(following widespread usage, also in my 1997 book “Indefinite
pronouns”).</span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In Functional Discourse Grammar (a typologically-based model of grammar developed by Kees Hengeveld and Lachlan Mackenzie), the general term <i>proform</i> is used which encompasses pronouns as well as (i) "pro-adverbs" (in their interrogative, demonstrative or relative uses) like <i>here/there/where </i>for places<i>, when/then</i> for time intervals, <i>how/so</i> for manners, etc., (ii) "pro-adjectives" like English <i>such</i> or Romance <i>tal/tel/tale</i> and (iii) "pro-verbs" like <i>do </i>and <i>do so</i>. I am not sure how new the term proform actually is, but as far as I can tell it is not very common outside this specific framework; however, I think it can indeed be very useful as a typologically neutral, f<span lang="EN-US">unctional </span>"super-category" -- whose members of course have further subdistinctions which vary across languages, as has been mentioned before for personal pronouns.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Best,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Riccardo<br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US"></span></i></p>
</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> escreveu no dia sexta, 9/07/2021 à(s) 14:59:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear all,<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">It’s
actually very tricky to (retro-)define “pronoun” and related
terms in such a
way that the definition corresponds to a large extent to the
legacy uses. Below
I propose some definitions of ten terms that are widely taken
for granted. Can
they be improved on? Four possible issues:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(i) There
is no definition of the general term “pronoun” – I wouldn’t know
how to define
it, other than by saying that the class comprises personal,
demonstrative,
interrogative and indefinite pronouns.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(ii)
Sebastian is right that people often use “pronoun” elliptically
to mean “personal
pronoun”, but I find this usage confusing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(iii) Possessive
pronouns are sometimes taken to be on a par with personal
pronouns (especially
in the well-known Indo-European languages), but I think they are
best thought
of as a special subtype of personal pronouns.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(iv) “Pronouns”
are often taken to be “noun-like” (because of the etymology of
“pro-noun”), but
I include interrogative adverbs like “when” and demonstrative
adverbs like “there”
(following widespread usage, also in my 1997 book “Indefinite
pronouns”).</span></p>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin
<br>
<br>
<div>Am 09.07.21 um 11:29 schrieb Sebastian
Nordhoff:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Dear all,
I think it is useful to have a look at the context in which "personal
pronoun" is used. There is an opposition to "possessive pronoun",
"reflexive pronoun" etc. So "personal pronoun" is the kind of pronoun
which is not possessive, which is not reflexive and so on.
If only "pronoun" is used, without further qualification, normally
"personal pronoun" is intended. If someone says "The pronouns of
language X and language Y are similar", the standard interpretation
would be that this refers to personal pronouns, rather than to reflexive
pronouns or the like.
Sometimes it is important to clearly state that you are not interested
in possessive/reflexive/interrogative pronouns. In those cases "personal
pronoun" is used. I see this as a shorthand for "subject/object pronoun".
Obviously, there are languages with very neat 2x3 paradigms, and there
are languages where the paradigms are fuzzy at the edges and you get kin
terms for reference and various politeness effects.
If one sees "personal pronoun" as "subject/object pronoun", the question
of whether a given form (eg in Korean) is actually third person becomes
moot.
So, the fact that we call a certain set of items "personal pronouns" is
probably due to a) opposition to other categories and b) tradition. It
should not be taken to imply that the category of "person" plays any
role in there. (After all, possessive pronouns also encode person, but
AFAICS they are normally not considered personal pronouns).
Best wishes
Sebastian</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span lang="EN-US">11
proposed definitions</span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">A <b>possessive
pronoun </b>(or adpossessive
pronoun) is a personal pronoun that is used in adnominal
possessive function.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">A <b>personal
pronoun</b> is (i) a locuphoric form
or (ii) an anaphoric form that is not a noun and that can be
used in a complement
clause coreferentially with a matrix argument.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">A
locuphoric form (= a locuphor) is a form that denotes the
speaker/producer or
the hearer/comprehender speech role.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">An <b>anaphoric
form </b>(or anaphoric pronoun)
is a form that is primarily used for anaphoric reference.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">A <b>demonstrative
(form)</b> is a form that can
be used to direct the interlocutors’ joint focus of attention to
entities in
the discourse situation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">A <b>demonstrative
determiner</b> is a
demonstrative that fulfills its function by occurring next to a
noun in a nominal
expression.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">A <b>demonstrative
pronoun</b> is a demonstrative
that forms a nominal or adverbial expression by itself without a
noun.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">An <b>interrogative
(form)</b> is a form that can
be used to specify the open parameter in a constituent question.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">An <b>interrogative
determiner</b> is an
interrogative that fulfills its function by occurring next to a
noun in a nominal
expression.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">An <b>interrogative
pronoun </b>is an
interrogative that forms a nominal or adverbial expression by
itself without a
noun.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">A <b>reflexive
pronoun </b>is an anaphoric form
that signals coreference with an antecedent in the same clause
and that forms a
nominal by itself (cf. Haspelmath 2021).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>
__ __
*From:*Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>> *On Behalf Of
*Martin Haspelmath
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 07, 2021 6:13 AM
*To:* <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
*Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Definition of “personal pronoun"____
__ __
Here's a new version of the definition that addresses Ian's point
about Korean:
"A personal pronoun is a form that (i) denotes a speech role
(speaker/producer and/or hearer/comprehender) OR that is an
anaphoric form which does not contain a noun AND (ii) that can be
used in a complement clause coreferentially with a matrix clause
argument."
By saying "anaphoric form *that does not contain a noun*", we
exclude the Korean case where 'brother' can be used coreferentially.
Maybe one should add "ordinary noun" or "a noun that can be used
indefinitely", because someone might claim, for example, that
Spanish "usted" is still a noun (e.g. because it has the noun-like
plural "usted-es").
Guillaume Segerer remarked that "pronoun" implies that it is not a
noun, but my proposed definition of "personal pronoun" does not say
that a personal pronoun is "a kind of pronoun", because I don't know
how to define "pronoun" (with such traditional terms, an extensional
definition is often all we can give, e.g. "/pronoun/ is a cover term
for /personal pronoun/, /interrogative pronoun/, ...")
Re Mira's point about deictic uses of 3rd-person personal pronouns:
I would say that this is not definitional – if a 3rd-person form
cannot be used anaphorically, it will not be called "personal
pronoun". But of course, personal pronouns often have other uses as
well in particular languages. Comparative concepts rarely map
perfectly onto language-particular categories.
Guillaume also mentions person indexes (which are often included in
personal pronoun charts), and this led me to look again at what I
said in my 2013 paper about person indexes: I distinguish between
cross-indexes, gramm-indexes, and pro-indexes, and the latter are
actually included in "pronoun" (contrasting with "free pronouns").
So I now say that "a personal pronoun is a form that..." (not "a
personal pronoun is a free form that...").
Best,
Martin
____
Am 06.07.21 um 20:48 schrieb Mira Ariel:____
But what about (not so common, but attested) deictic references
(first-mention) to 3^rd person using "personal pronouns"?____
____
Mira____
____
*From:*Lingtyp [<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>] *On Behalf
Of *Martin Haspelmath
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 6, 2021 1:48 AM
*To:* <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
*Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Definition of “personal pronoun"____
____
Maybe the following will work:
"A personal pronoun is a free form that (i) denotes a speech
role (speaker/producer and/or hearer/comprehender) OR that is
used as an anaphoric form AND (ii) that can be used in a
complement clause coreferentially with a matrix clause argument."
This is a disjunctive definition that brings together locuphoric
forms ('I', 'we', 'you') and 3rd-person anaphoric (or
"endophoric") forms, following the Western tradition (but not
following any kind of compelling logic).
It seems that personal pronouns need to be delimited from three
types of somewhat doubtful forms:
– person indexes (I do not include bound forms under "personal
pronoun" here, following my 2013 paper on person indexes:
<a href="https://zenodo.org/record/1294059" target="_blank">https://zenodo.org/record/1294059</a>
<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzenodo.org%2Frecord%2F1294059&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7Cfcf0475684e1463b39ba08d941382d63%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637612532579177572%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=RbFRPnwDeMNZBZ6rSsbcgAFVtnzCtCLFLvJhSRf2Meg%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fzenodo.org%2Frecord%2F1294059&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7Cfcf0475684e1463b39ba08d941382d63%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637612532579177572%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=RbFRPnwDeMNZBZ6rSsbcgAFVtnzCtCLFLvJhSRf2Meg%3D&reserved=0></a>)
– demonstratives
– titles like "Your Majesty"
I think that if a language has a form like "that-one" or
"your-majesty" that can be used coreferentially in a complement
clause, one will regard it as a personal pronoun:
(a) "My sister(i) thinks that that-one(i) has an answer."
(b) "Does your-majesty(i) think that your-majesty(i) has an answer?"
In German, the polite second-person pronoun "Sie" (which has
Third-Person syntax) can be used in (b), but the demonstrative
"die" can hardly be used in (a), so it would not count as a
personal pronoun (yet). However, in Hindi-Urdu and Mongolian, as
mentioned by Ian, the demonstrative can be used in this way (I
think), so it would count as a personal pronoun.
I don't think we need the general notion of "person" to define
"personal pronoun". Wikipedia's current definition is therefore
quite confusing (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_pronoun" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_pronoun</a>
<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPersonal_pronoun&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7Cfcf0475684e1463b39ba08d941382d63%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637612532579187566%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=dD%2BshVMYknV2PzXdBgWrIIAYTUuUtpRdjQcgGctDfco%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPersonal_pronoun&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7Cfcf0475684e1463b39ba08d941382d63%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637612532579187566%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=dD%2BshVMYknV2PzXdBgWrIIAYTUuUtpRdjQcgGctDfco%3D&reserved=0></a>).
Thanks for this interesting challenge, Ian! It seems to me that
quite a few of our traditional terms CAN be defined, but their
definitions are not obvious at all (and the textbooks don't
usually give the definitions).
Best,
Martin____
Am 06.07.21 um 06:53 schrieb JOO, Ian [Student]:____
Dear typologists,
I’m having a hard time trying to find a definition of a
“personal pronoun”.
One definition is that a personal pronoun refers to a
literal person, a human being. But then again, non-human
pronouns like English /it/ are also frequently included as a
personal pronoun.
Another definition seems to be that “personal” refers to a
grammatical person and not a literal person.
Thus, /it/ refers to the (non-human) 3rd person, therefore
it is a personal pronoun.
But then again, demonstratives, interrogative, and
indefinite pronouns also refer to the 3rd person.
(This /is/ a book, who /is /that man,
anything /is /possible) Then are they also personal pronouns?
What’s the clearest definition of a personal pronoun, if
any?____
From Hong Kong, ____
Ian____
____
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-- ____
Martin Haspelmath____
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology____
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-- ____
Martin Haspelmath____
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology____
Deutscher Platz 6____
D-04103 Leipzig____
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<pre cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a href="https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522" target="_blank">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a></pre>
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