<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default">dear Ponrawee, dear all,<br><br>A note about Greek particles:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_default">> <span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><i>As far as I know Wackernagel position is determined phonologically.</i></span></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Classical Greek indeed has many discourse particles that occur in Wackernagel's position, i.e. immediately after the first word (or sometimes, after the first constituent).</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">However, only a subset of them are <b>clitics</b> strictly speaking:</div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_default">τε 'and' (PIE *=kʷe), <br>γε 'at least', <br>νυ 'now', <br>τοι 'really', <br>που 'somehow', <br>πως 'in a way'...</div></blockquote><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">In Classical Greek, clitics are defined by the absence of any inherent accent, and thus the lack of prosodic autonomy; so indeed, these forms need to "lean on" (κλίνω) the previous word to exist phonologically. For those words, it could even be argued (as Daniel pointed out) that their syntactic position is really clause-initial, except they must occur in 2P for purely phonological reasons.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">However, many discourse particles appear in the same Wackernagel's position, even though they bear their own accent:</div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_default">δέ 'and also'; μέν ... δέ 'on the one hand..., on the other hand'; δή 'truly'; γάρ 'indeed'; οὖν 'therefore'; γοῦν 'at least then'...</div></blockquote><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_default">[ NB: It is not rare to have whole strings of those P2 particles: <font size="1"><br> e.g. Plato has : Δοκεῖ <b>γε δή</b>. / Πάνυ <b>μὲν οὖν </b>/ πολλάκις <b>μέν γε δή</b> /...</font> ]</div></blockquote><div class="gmail_default"><br>Those accent-bearing forms are not considered clitics, at least not in the philological tradition, because their prosodic features do not depend on the previous word.<br>Their systematic position as the second word therefore cannot be explained just by phonological constraints: one has to posit a special slot in the clause, which is precisely what Wackernagel's position is. That slot, reserved to discourse particles and linkers, accommodates clitics as well as non-clitics; rather than being purely determined by phonology, that slot is thus of a syntactic nature.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Perhaps this makes Wackernagel's position relevant to Ponrawee's query?</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">best<br>Alex</div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><hr style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.33px" width="70" size="1" noshade align="left"><p style="font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif"><font size="2"><span style="color:rgb(69,129,142)">Alex François</span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></p><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><a style="text-decoration-line:none" href="http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">LaTTiCe</a> — <a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" href="http://www.cnrs.fr/index.html" rel="noopener" target="_blank">CNRS–</a><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" href="https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094" rel="noopener" target="_blank">ENS</a>–<a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" href="http://www.univ-paris3.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Sorbonne nouvelle</a><br><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" href="https://researchers.anu.edu.au/researchers/francois-a" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Australian National University<br></a><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" href="https://www.ae-info.org/ae/Member/François_Alexandre" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Academia Europaea</a> – </font><font size="1"><font size="1"><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" href="https://cnrs.academia.edu/AlexFran%C3%A7ois" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Academia.edu</a><br></font></font></span><div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><font size="1"> </font><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Personal homepage</a><br></font></span></div><div><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___</font></div></div></div></div></div><div><div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"></span></font></span></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 at 11:05, Ponrawee Prasertsom <<a href="mailto:ponrawee.pra@gmail.com" target="_blank">ponrawee.pra@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Dear all</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Thank you for all the help so far.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I was more interested in syntactically fixed connectives. As far as I know Wackernagel position is determined phonologically. In Thai I am not aware of an analysis that shows this is the case. The connective always occurs post-Subject even in case there is a fronted phrase etc. (So not strictly second in the sequence). However, I would love to learn more about the range of variation beyond my interest as well.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best regards,</div><div dir="auto">Ponrawee</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 9 Aug 2564 BE at 15:45 Wiemer, Bjoern <<a href="mailto:wiemerb@uni-mainz.de" target="_blank">wiemerb@uni-mainz.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Dear
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="letter-spacing:0.15pt">Ponrawee,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="letter-spacing:0.15pt">does your request also concern clitics (e.g., 2P-enclitics, also known as Wackernagel clitics)? Your Thai example suggests that position is fixed regarding the syntactic function. But do you
have in mind also cases in which some position is fixed simply in terms of linear sequence?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="letter-spacing:0.15pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="letter-spacing:0.15pt">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="letter-spacing:0.15pt">Björn.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div lang="DE"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Von:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Lingtyp [mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Im Auftrag von </b>Ponrawee Prasertsom<br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Gesendet:</b> Montag, 9. August 2021 08:00<br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">An:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Betreff:</b> [Lingtyp] Discourse connectives that do not occur at clause edges<u style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Does anyone know of language(s) with a discourse connective (roughly defined as any word that relates two event arguments expressed as clauses) that<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">1. Has a dedicated (fixed) position in the clause<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2. Does NOT occur clause-initial or -finally<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The example I have in mind is Thai /kɔ̂ɔ/ and Lao /kaø/, which always occur after the subject. I'm also wondering how much this is specific to Southwestern Tai (or Kra-Dai more generally). <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I appreciate every help. Thank you all in advance.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="letter-spacing:0.15pt">Ponrawee Prasertsom</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Graduate student<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Department of Linguistics<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" dir="auto">Chulalongkorn University</p></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="letter-spacing:0.2px">Ponrawee Prasertsom</span><br></div><div><br></div><div>Postgraduate student</div><div>MSc Evolution of Language and Cognition</div><div>Centre for Language Evolution</div><div>School of Philosophy, Psychology and Language Sciences</div><div>University of Edinburgh<br></div></div></div>
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