<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Guillaume,<div class="">No one said it was an absolute rule; it is an areal tendency that has been talked about for a long time. There is also no such thing as a single cause for all phenomena in a large and widely spread language family like this.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Matisoff (2001) considers the sesqui-syllabic structure that results from the reduction of initial syllables in two syllable compounds where there is an iambic stress pattern an areal feature of Mainland Southeast Asian languages within what he calls the Indosphere (as opposed to the Sinosphere), but talks about the process as cyclical, and not uniform in all language groups.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">David Bradley (1980) gives a very good historical explanation for the type of language contact that might have led to Burmese having so many Mon characteristics, such as the iambic pattern. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">See also Donegan and Stampe (2004—a summary of work they had done on this since the 1970’s) on the iambic pattern as characteristic of SEAsia and its importance in understanding in the development of Munda.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Bradley, David. 1980. Phonological Convergence Between Languages in Contact: Mon-Khmer Structural Borrowing in Burmese. <i class="">Proceedings of the Sixth Annual Meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society</i>, pp. 258-267. (Republished in LaPolla, Randy J. (ed.), <i class="">Sino-Tibetan Linguistics: Critical Concepts in Linguistics, V. II: Language Contact and Areal Features,</i> 228-236. London & NY: Routledge.)</div><div class="">
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<!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class="">Donegan, Patricia and Stampe, David. 2004. Rhythm
and the synthetic drift of Munda. In </span><span style="font-style: italic; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Rajendra Singh (ed.), </span><i class=""><a href="https://www.degruyter.com/serial/YSALL-B/html" class=""><span style="background-color: white;" class="">The Yearbook of South Asian Languages
and Linguistics</span></a>,</i> 3-36. Berlin: De Gruyter. <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(0, 79, 102); background-color: white;" class=""><a href="https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110179897.3" target="_blank" class="">https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110179897.3</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Matisoff, James A. 2001. Genetic versus contact relationship: Prosodic diffusibility in South-East Asian languages. In A. Y. Aikhenvald & R. M. W. Dixon (eds.), <i class="">Areal Diffusion and Genetic Inheritance,</i> 291-327. </p><div class="">Randy</div>
<!--EndFragment--></div><div class=""><div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">——</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">Professor Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13.333333015441895px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">（罗仁地)</span><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">, PhD FAHA </span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">Center for Language Sciences</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">Beijing Normal University, Zhuhai Campus</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">A401, Muduo Building, #18 Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai City, China</span></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 19 Aug 2021, at 7:14 PM, Guillaume Jacques <<a href="mailto:rgyalrongskad@gmail.com" class="">rgyalrongskad@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">Dear Randy and David,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In the particular case of Trans-Himalayan/Sino-Tibetan, iambic stress patterns are found in several disconnected zones, and not exclusively in the south. It is attested in particular in some prefixing Kiranti languages (such as Khaling and Limbu), and in Gyalrongic languages, where an influence from Austro-asiatic is not possible (see Lai 2021 on the development of the prefixal chain in Khroskyabs). In addition, Baxter and Sagart (2014) argue, using evidence from loanwords into Vietic and Lakkia, that Old Chinese (the northernmost TH language) had presyllables (with an iambic stress pattern) until the Han dynasty.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Guillaume<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">References</div><div class="">Baxter, William H. III & Laurent Sagart. 2014. Old Chinese: A new reconstruction. Oxford: Oxford University Press</div><div class="">
<div class="gmail-fade gmail-active gmail-show gmail-tab-pane" id="gmail-MLA" role="tabpanel" aria-labelledby="MLA-tab">Lai, Yunfan. "Betrayal through obedience: on the history of the unusual inflectional chain in Siyuewu Khroskyabs: " <i class="">Linguistic Typology</i>, vol. 25, no. 1, 2020, pp. 79-122. <a href="https://doi.org/10.1515/lingty-2021-2075" class="">https://doi.org/10.1515/lingty-2021-2075</a></div>
</div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le jeu. 19 août 2021 à 04:06, Randy J. LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" class="">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">Hi Matt,<div class="">Similar to what David mentions, although it isn’t a single language, within Sino-Tibetan there is a similar geographic difference, with northern languages tending towards trochaic and southern languages tending towards iambic, which we assume was due to influence from the Austro-Asiatic languages in the south.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Randy<br class=""><div class="">
<div dir="auto" style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">——</span></div><div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">Professor Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-family:Verdana,Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13.3333px" class="">（罗仁地)</span><span style="font-size:14px" class="">, PhD FAHA </span></div><div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">Center for Language Sciences</span></div><div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences</span></div><div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">Beijing Normal University, Zhuhai Campus</span></div><div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">A401, Muduo Building, #18 Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai City, China</span></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class=""></div><br class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 18 Aug 2021, at 6:52 PM, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" class="">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Dear Matt,<br class="">
</p><p class="">In colloquial Malay/Indonesian, some dialects are iambic while
others are trochaic; with just a few exceptions this follows a
geographical pattern, with final stress to the west, penultimate
stress to the east. So presumably the kind of shift you are
looking for must have taken place here, in the course of the
diversification of Malay/Indonesian dialects.</p><p class="">As for the directionality of the shift: given that Malay
originated in the western part of the archipelago, where foot
structure is iambic, one might speculate that this was the
original pattern, and that as the language spread eastwards, some
varieties switched to trochaic, most likely under the influence of
the local substrate languages, many of which have trochaic
structure.</p><p class="">David</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div class="">On 17/08/2021 22:07, Matthew Windsor
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear
all,<span class=""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Is
anyone aware of a language where metrical/rhythmic structure
has clearly shifted from having right-headed (iambic) feet to
left-headed
(trochaic) feet or vice versa? I’m studying a language variety
where this seems
to be the case. It’s a quantity-sensitive system, so the
change mainly affects
strings of light syllables. Any examples or suggested
resources would be
helpful, thanks!<span class=""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Regards,<span class=""></span></p>
<br class="">
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<td style="width:279.8pt;padding:7.5pt 0in;height:56.2pt" width="293" valign="top" class=""><p class=""><font size="4" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" class="">Matt Windsor</span></b></font></p><p class=""><span class="">Linguistics & Translation
Facilitator |
SIL </span><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class="">Americas,
North</span></span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""></span></p><p class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class=""><span class="">Cell:
1-807-631-6656</span></span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""></span></p><div class=""><span class=""></span><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""></span><br class=""></div><p style="margin-top:12pt" class=""><span style="font-family:"BJCree UNI";color:rgb(118,113,113)" class="">ᐅᐦᐅᐁᐧ</span><span style="font-family:"BJCree UNI";color:rgb(118,113,113)" class=""> </span><span style="font-family:"BJCree UNI";color:rgb(118,113,113)" class="">ᐃᐦᑭᑐᐃᐧᐣ</span><span style="font-family:"BJCree UNI";color:rgb(118,113,113)" class=""> </span><span style="font-family:"BJCree UNI";color:rgb(118,113,113)" class="">ᑮᐄᐧᔮᐦᓯᐃᐧ</span><span style="font-family:"BJCree UNI";color:rgb(118,113,113)" class=""> </span><span style="font-family:"BJCree UNI";color:rgb(118,113,113)" class="">ᒦᓇ</span><span style="font-family:"BJCree UNI";color:rgb(118,113,113)" class=""> </span><span style="font-family:"BJCree UNI";color:rgb(118,113,113)" class="">ᑭᑮᐱᐄᐧᒋᐊᔮᒥᑯᓈᐣ</span><span style="font-family:"BJCree UNI";color:rgb(118,113,113)" class="">.</span><span class=""></span></p><div style="margin-top:12pt" class=""><span class=""></span><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""></span><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class=""></span><span class=""></span><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""></span><br class=""></div>
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<pre class="">_______________________________________________
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</blockquote>
<pre cols="72" class="">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" class="">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
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_______________________________________________<br class="">Lingtyp mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" class="">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all" class=""><br class="">-- <br class=""><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">Guillaume Jacques</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Directeur de recherches<br class="">CNRS (CRLAO) - EPHE- INALCO <br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=1XCp2-oAAAAJ&hl=fr" target="_blank" class="">https://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=1XCp2-oAAAAJ&hl=fr</a><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques" target="_blank" class="">https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295</a></div><div class=""><div class=""><a href="http://panchr.hypotheses.org/" target="_blank" class="">http://panchr.hypotheses.org/</a></div></div></div></div>
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