<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Dear Ratanon, <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">My understanding is that for Beijing Mandarin, some have interpreted the 'neutral tone' as being toneless and have also assumed that intonational tones can map over toneless 'particles' (<a href="https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/15971">Yip 1980</a>, <a href="https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110822014.81/html">Shih 1997</a>, <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265285238_Towards_a_Pan-Mandarin_System_for_Prosodic_Transcription">Peng et al. 2005</a>).</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">In general though, I thought the phenomena of toneless syllables (and therefore morphemes) was supposed to be extremely common for sparser tone systems. For instance, in Chacobo, I've assumed it's a privative tone system (H or unmarked), where syllables are either marked with H or not. Toneless syllables and toneless morphemes are prolific. <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">All of this only makes sense under an autosegmental interpretation of tonal specification. For advocates of the <a href="http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/~uclyyix/yispapers/Xu_etAl_Phonology2015_author.pdf">PENTA</a> model every syllable must be marked with a pitch specification - apparent counterexamples are the result of some type of articulatory undershoot. So maybe our tendency to posit `toneless syllables' shouldn't be regarded as some theory neutral descriptive fact (as this discussion assumes), but rather, as the consequence of the dominance or hegemony of the autosegmental approach to tone / intonation.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">best,<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Adam<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 5:52 PM David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Dear Ratanon and all,<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Oddly, some non-tonal languages of Southeast Asia seem to exhibit
a mirror-image pattern to the one you describe; there it seems as
though the sentence-final particles are the only forms that ARE
tonal, though whether this is really lexical tone as opposed to
intonation remains an open question. This has been argued for
Singlish (colloquial Singaporean English), and I think could
plausibly also be argued for some varieties of Malay.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I suspect that some languages of the Sough Halmahera West New
Guinea subgroup of Austronesian might also fit the bill, albeit in
different ways. For Moor, David Kamholz has argued that lexical
tone only shows up on the final syllable of the phonological
phrase, all other syllables remaining toneless. And for Roon, I
have described a tonal distinction in a single inflectional
paradigm involving inalienable possession, while all the rest of
the language, way over 99% of it, lacks lexical tone.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>All of the above examples are thus perhaps more appropriately
described as "inherently tonal morphemes in non-tone languages"
...<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>David<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 24/08/2021 15:39, Ratanon
Jiamsundutsadee wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Dear all,</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Is anyone familiar with tone languages which
are analyzed to have "toneless" morphemes, i.e. not specified
for tone in the underlying representation?</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",sans-serif;font-size:11pt">For example, some final particles in Thai
have been analyzed to be inherently toneless, exhibiting their
surface pitch contour only due to their linkage to
intonational-phrase-final boundary tones.</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",sans-serif;font-size:11pt">(1) rāw cʰɔ̂ɔp tàw
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">kʰa</span>-L%</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> 1SG like turtle FP</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> 'I like turtles.' (/<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">kʰa/ = formal, female speaking)</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",sans-serif;font-size:11pt">(2) nâarák máj kʰa-H%</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> cute FP FP</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> 'Aren't they cute?' (/<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">máj</span>/ = neutral interrogative; <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">/</span><span style="margin:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">kʰa/ = formal, female
speaking)</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><span style="margin:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br>
</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="font-family:"Franklin Gothic Demi","Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><span>Traditionally,
/kʰá/ and /kʰâ~kʰà/ would be treated as fully specified
for tone and distinct from each other. </span></span><span>So far, I have encountered
somewhat similar accounts (of certain morphemes, particularly
final particles, which are said to be tonally unspecified) in
Mandarin and Cantonese.</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span>Any help would be
greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span>Kind regards,</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span>Ratanon
Jiamsundutsadee</span></div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
</pre>
</div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">Adam J.R. Tallman</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">Post-doctoral Researcher <br></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">Friedrich Schiller Universität<br></font></div><div><font face="times new roman, serif">Department of English Studies<br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>