<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi David,<div class="">I was just referring to the pattern of the final syllable being different from the preceding ones. It is also a matter of analysis in terms of how you look at the Min sandhi patterns. Many years ago Hashimoto Mantaro (Mantaro J. Hashimoto) argued for looking at them the other way around, i.e. seeing the sandhi tones as the basic tones and the so-called citation tones as the sandhi tones. He felt the sandhi circle you mentioned worked better that way. There was also a debate at that time (1980’s) about the historical development, as some argued the sandhi tones were the original tones, and there are interesting correlations, e.g. in my wife’s dialect (Quanzhou) the citation tones are largely the same as the sandhi tones in Taiwanese Hokkien.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">All the best,</div><div class="">Randy<br class=""><div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">——</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">Professor Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13.333333015441895px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">（罗仁地)</span><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">, PhD FAHA </span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">Center for Language Sciences</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">Beijing Normal University, Zhuhai Campus</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;" class="">A302, Muduo Building, #18 Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai City, China</span></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 25 Aug 2021, at 6:00 PM, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" class="">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Randy,</p><p class="">I'm not sure I see the connection. Synchronically, Singlish is
quite distinct from Southern Min with respect to many of its basic
morphosyntactic patterns (and not just in the direction of being
more like Standard English). With regard to tonality, in Singlish
apparent lexical tone (if one analyzes it that way) is specific to
the phrase-final *particles*, whereas in Southern Min, the
citation tone appears on phrase-final syllables generally — which
are typically content morphemes though they also be grammatical
morphemes. Plus, you get similar apparently tonal effects in
Malay/Indonesian dialects that have not been in intensive contact
with Southern Min.<br class="">
<br class="">
If anything, Southern Min tone sandhi bears a greater resemblance
to the pattern I mentioned yesterday in Moor (Austronesian, West
Papua), where, in a phonological phrase, the final syllable bears
lexical tone, while pre-final syllables are toneless. However,
for this analogy to work, you have to identify Moor pre-final
toneless syllables with Southern Min pre-final sandhi syllables,
and from what I recollect, there is some debate in the literature
with regard to whether Southern Min sandhi tones are appropriately
analyzed as "reductions" of the corresponding citation tones.
(Logically, in those Southern Min dialects that have a complete
tone sandhi circle eg. A > B > C > D > A, they can't
all be reductions.)</p><p class="">David</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 25/08/2021 07:55, Randy LaPolla
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CFCF7377-6027-432F-829B-64D73A35736E@gmail.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
Hi David,
<div class="">That is quite interesting. Singlish is historically basically
Southern Min Chinese spoken with English words, and Southern Min
has a tone sandhi pattern that is usually analyzed as having
only the last syllable in a phrase as the citation tone, and all
of the preceding tones in the sandhi tones, a pattern that has
some similarity with the one you mentioned. I wonder if there is
a connection. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Randy<br class="">
<br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Sent from my phone</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On 24 Aug 2021, at 11:52 PM, David Gil
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"><gil@shh.mpg.de></a> wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<p class="">Dear Ratanon and all,<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class="">Oddly, some non-tonal languages of Southeast Asia seem to
exhibit a mirror-image pattern to the one you describe;
there it seems as though the sentence-final particles are
the only forms that ARE tonal, though whether this is
really lexical tone as opposed to intonation remains an
open question. This has been argued for Singlish
(colloquial Singaporean English), and I think could
plausibly also be argued for some varieties of Malay.</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class="">I suspect that some languages of the Sough Halmahera West
New Guinea subgroup of Austronesian might also fit the
bill, albeit in different ways. For Moor, David Kamholz
has argued that lexical tone only shows up on the final
syllable of the phonological phrase, all other syllables
remaining toneless. And for Roon, I have described a
tonal distinction in a single inflectional paradigm
involving inalienable possession, while all the rest of
the language, way over 99% of it, lacks lexical tone.</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class="">All of the above examples are thus perhaps more
appropriately described as "inherently tonal morphemes in
non-tone languages" ...<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class="">David<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24/08/2021 15:39, Ratanon
Jiamsundutsadee wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:SI2PR02MB503695DD87084CD1A2604968DFC59@SI2PR02MB5036.apcprd02.prod.outlook.com" class="">
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="font-family: "Franklin Gothic Demi",
"Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Dear all,</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="font-family: "Franklin Gothic Demi",
"Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Is anyone familiar with
tone languages which are analyzed to have "toneless"
morphemes, i.e. not specified for tone in the
underlying representation?</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="font-family: "Franklin Gothic Demi",
"Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">For example, some final
particles in Thai have been analyzed to be inherently
toneless, exhibiting their surface pitch contour only
due to their linkage to intonational-phrase-final
boundary tones.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="font-family: "Franklin Gothic Demi",
"Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">(1) rāw cʰɔ̂ɔp tàw
<span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255,
255);display:inline !important" class="">kʰa</span>-L%</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="font-family: "Franklin Gothic Demi",
"Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> 1SG like
turtle FP</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="font-family: "Franklin Gothic Demi",
"Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> 'I like turtles.'
(/<span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255,
255);display:inline !important" class="">kʰa/ = formal,
female speaking)</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="font-family: "Franklin Gothic Demi",
"Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">(2) nâarák máj
kʰa-H%</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="font-family: "Franklin Gothic Demi",
"Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> cute FP FP</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="font-family: "Franklin Gothic Demi",
"Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> 'Aren't they cute?'
(/<span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255,
255);display:inline !important" class="">máj</span>/ =
neutral interrogative; <span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255,
255);display:inline !important" class="">/</span><span style="margin:0px;background-color:rgb(255, 255,
255);display:inline !important" class="">kʰa/ = formal,
female speaking)</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="font-family: "Franklin Gothic Demi",
"Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><span style="margin:0px;background-color:rgb(255, 255,
255);display:inline !important" class=""><br class="">
</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="font-family: "Franklin Gothic Demi",
"Avenir Next Condensed Demi Bold",
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><span style="margin:
0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display:
inline !important; font-family: "Franklin
Gothic Demi", "Avenir Next Condensed Demi
Bold", sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Traditionally,
/kʰá/ and /kʰâ~kʰà/ would be treated as fully
specified for tone and distinct from each other. </span></span><span style="" class="">So far, I have encountered somewhat similar
accounts (of certain morphemes, particularly final
particles, which are said to be tonally unspecified)
in Mandarin and Cantonese.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="" class="">Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank
you in advance!</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="" class="">Kind regards,</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <span style="" class="">Ratanon Jiamsundutsadee</span></div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
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</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
</pre>
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