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<p>Dear all,<br>
</p>
<p>I have heard English <i>too</i> being used instead of <i>very</i>
in numerous places around the world in the kind of English jargon
that local tourist touts use when addressing foreigners.</p>
<p>A similar development occurs also in Indonesian with the form <i>terlalu</i>
(INVOL:pass). While in Standard Indonesian this means 'too'
('excessively'), in the colloquial varieties of Indonesian that I
am familiar with, there is no counterpart to <i>too </i>('excessively').
However, in some eastern dialects of Malay/Indonesian (I have
heard this in Timor, Sumba and central Sulawesi), <i>terlalu</i>
(or a cognate thereof, usually <i>talalu</i>) is used to mean
'very'.</p>
<p>David<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/10/2021 13:11, Pier Marco
Bertinetto wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div>The same change is occurring in Italian.<br>
</div>
<div>'Troppo' has the same negative overtone as Fr. 'trop', but
for young people it is also a frequently used intensifiers.<br>
</div>
<div>The transition is easy to analyze: 'troppo bello' =
'exceedingly/overwhelmingly beautiful' --> 'very
beautiful'.<br>
</div>
<div>Best<br>
</div>
<div>Pier Marco<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno sab 16 ott 2021
alle ore 11:56 Jesse P. Gates <<a
href="mailto:stauskad@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">stauskad@gmail.com</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
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<div>Dear Jeremy,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Could you tell us the precise Chinese dialect that
this construction occurs in? In many other Chinese
dialects 'Adj.-de-hen' is simply an intensification
construction, so it is interesting how this dialect that
you speak of has constrained the meaning so specifically
to a cause to negative effect meaning. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Languages often have a choice between a negative
intensifier and a positive one. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think in English 'too' often has negative overtones
to it, but not always. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In French, 'trop' is a negative intensifier and
'tres' is a positive one. But I have heard that this is
changing a bit and young people on the streets use trop
for some positive senses. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When I first started studying Chinese it took me a
while to understand that 太 did not intensify in a
negative way, necessarily. For example, if I say in
English, 'he's too fast', that usually means something
negative (like I can't catch him or beat him in a race),
it usually doesn't mean 'he is very fast' in a neutral
way or 'he's so fast' in a positive way. But in Mandarin
他太快了 can be used for the meaning 'he is very fast', it
can be used to get a neutral, or negative, or positive
meaning. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--<br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><span
style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Best
regards,</span>
<div><span
style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br>
<b>Jesse P. Gates, PhD<br>
</b>Nankai University, School of Literature
南开大学文学院<br>
<a href="https://nankai.academia.edu/JesseGates"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://nankai.academia.edu/JesseGates</a></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 16, 2021
at 2:55 PM tangzhengda <<a
href="mailto:tangzhengda@126.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">tangzhengda@126.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="line-height:1.7;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-family:Arial">
<div style="margin:0px">Dear colleagues,</div>
<div style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px">In a certain NW Chinese
dialect the adjective phrase of '<b>Adj.-<i>de</i>-hen</b>'
(roughly taken to mean '<b>very Adj</b>.') can
only be used <i>on condition that</i> it take the
role of a CAUSE, or a 'causing state', by which a
NEGATIVE EFFECT is resulted. The Negative effect,
as an 'event' that has never factually happen, can
be encoded as another clause, an element of the
same clause, or totally covertly implied. For
example,</div>
<div style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px">
INTS as CAUSE NEG EFFECT</div>
<div style="margin:0px"> 这 鸡
瘦-得-很， 他 不 买</div>
<div style="margin:0px"> this chicken
thin-de-very, he NEG. buy.</div>
<div style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px"> (When buying
chickens) 这 鸡 瘦-得-很。 </div>
<div style="margin:0px">
this chicken
thin-de-very</div>
<div style="margin:0px">
'The chicken is thin
(therefore he cannot buy it/it fails to be
worth...)'</div>
<div style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px"> （See a chicken roaming
by, no intent to buy） <span
style="font-size:16px"><b>* </b></span>这 鸡
瘦-得-很</div>
<div style="margin:0px">
this chicken thin-de-very</div>
<p style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<div style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px"> My wonder is whether some
correlation exists between the intensification of
a property (like an AP magnified by the degree
words) and the CAUSTION, esp. negative ones (in
Barros 2003, positive cause plus a negative effect
is one type of the negative caustion where the
relata is termed as 'prevention/interference').
Perhaps English 'too...to...' could be such a
construction to connect the state/property and an
EVENT. If yes, how is the correlation motivated
and typologically attested?</div>
<div style="margin:0px"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px">With best wishes,</div>
<div style="margin:0px">Jeremy</div>
<p style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<div>
<p style="margin:0px">--</p>
<div>唐正大</div>
<div>中国社会科学院语言研究所《中国语文》编辑部</div>
<div>北京市建国门内大街5号，100732</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Institute of Linguistics, Chinese Academy of
Social Sciences,</div>
<div>No.5 Jianguomennei Dajie, Beijing, China;
100732</div>
</div>
<p style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
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<pre cols="72"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span>=========================================================
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span> |||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
------ professore emerito
/////// Scuola Normale Superiore
------- <a href="http://p.za" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">p.za</a> dei Cavalieri 7<span style="background-color:rgb(243,243,243)"><span></span></span>
/////// I-56126 PISA
------- phone: +39 050 509111
///////
------- HOME
/////// via Matteotti 197
------- I-55049 Viareggio LU
/////// phone: +39 0584 652417<span style="background-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></span>
------- cell.: +39 368 3830251
=========================================================
editor of "Italian Journal of Linguistics"
webpage <<a href="https://www.sns.it/it/bertinetto-pier-marco" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.sns.it/it/bertinetto-pier-marco</a>>
"Laboratorio di Linguistica" <<a href="http://linguistica.sns.it" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://linguistica.sns.it</a>>
=========================================================</pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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