<div dir="ltr"><div>I believe in those languages, they are obligatory, though, and although the history is complicated, these historical developments in orthography are not independent, so I find the development of a Semitic orthography within Semitic languages to be more convincing than possible Semitic influence on other orthographies.</div><div><br></div><div>Again, I don't mean to suggest any clear conclusions from this! I'm not sure what we should be learning from these orthographies, but I think there is something to be learned. It's a thought I've had previously, but this conversation on the list has made me think about exploring it more thoroughly in the future, so I appreciate all of the ideas here, and your cautious approach is also warranted.<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 1:18 AM Peter Arkadiev <<a href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Well, it is perhaps telling, but we should be cautious not to extrapolate this link too broadly, because the whole family of Asian alphabetical scripts write vowels as diacritics regardless of the morphological structure of the languages thus written.</div><div> </div><div>29.11.2021, 12:08, "Daniel Ross" <<a href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com" target="_blank">djross3@gmail.com</a>>:</div><blockquote><div><div>Yes, it can optionally be specified, but it still highlights the morphological type of the languages: the vowels are written as diacritics, rather than as full letters equivalent to the consonants.</div><div> </div><div>I think that is telling. I'm not sure precisely what it is telling us (about "wordhood", etc.), but I think it is somehow related to morphological structure.</div></div> <div><div>On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 12:37 AM Peter Arkadiev <<a href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex"><div>Well, note that both Arabic and Hebrew invented intricate notation for vowels quite early on, which is optional in some types of texts, but does exist.</div><div> </div><div>29.11.2021, 11:34, "Daniel Ross" <<a href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">djross3@gmail.com</a>>:</div><blockquote><div><div>Thank you, that's an important point! The morphology is based around the triconsonantal roots (along with the vocalic patterns that create fully-formed words), although it is somewhat unexpected (and a challenge for someone learning these languages) that they actually do not write morphological contrasts such as passives that are specified only by vowels. What I meant is that the writing system clearly reflects a particular perspective, i.e. structural analysis, for how Semitic languages work.</div><div> </div><div>I don't think it's coincidental that both (1) abjads originally developed in these languages, and (2) abjads remain in use for (most of) these languages, but other languages (Greek, etc.) have added vowels to make alphabets.</div><div> </div><div>Daniel</div></div> <div><div>On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 12:27 AM Peter Arkadiev <<a href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex"><div>Dear Danny,</div><div> </div><div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(0,0,0);float:none;font-family:"arial",sans-serif;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;text-decoration-style:initial;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">>Phoenician follows the well-known triliteral root system of Semitic languages, and those languages >typically use abjads (consonant-only writing systems), and I have to assume that this is due to the >central importance of consonants over vowels in their morphology. </span></div><div> </div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(0,0,0);float:none;font-family:"arial",sans-serif;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;text-decoration-style:initial;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">This is just to the contrary, I'm afraid: most of the Semitic morphology is performed by vowels only (cf. kataba 'he wrote' vs. kutiba 'it was written'), with the role of consonants (apart from the root) being limited -- although important enough, of course.</span></div><div> </div><div>Best regards,</div><div> </div><div>Peter</div><div> </div></div><div> </div><div>29.11.2021, 06:38, "Daniel Ross" <<a href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">djross3@gmail.com</a>>:</div><blockquote><div><div>This is the topic of the next lecture in my Morphology class (and my students are currently reading your 2011 paper, Martin), so thank you everyone for this timely and interesting discussion.</div><div> </div><div>I would like to look at your conclusion from a different perspective, though: I agree that spaces may not directly tell us about word boundaries in languages, but for another reason.</div><div> </div><div>Japanese is a very interesting example because there are three (sub)scripts working together: kanji (from Chinese characters) for most lexical items, hiragana for function morphemes, and katakana for borrowings and onomatopoeia. The first response from most people (i.e. students) learning about this for the first time is that Japanese sounds hard to write, with the impression that the system may be redundant. But remember that Japanese does not use spaces. And it simply does not need to: kanji and hiragana very clearly mark the morphosyntactic structure of a sentence, so it is easy to skim and identify word boundaries, or at least equivalent information to what word boundaries do for us. This is an extremely efficient and transparent system, reflecting how Japanese words grammatically, not just orthographically.</div><div> </div><div>My suggestion then is to not look at when spaces are used in an orthography, but to look at what different orthographies do instead of spaces, or otherwise in a way that reflects specific morphosyntactic properties of languages.</div><div> </div><div>Looking back at the history of our familiar alphabet, Greek vowels were basically an accident when adapting the Phoenician writing system to Greek. Phoenician follows the well-known triliteral root system of Semitic languages, and those languages typically use abjads (consonant-only writing systems), and I have to assume that this is due to the central importance of consonants over vowels in their morphology. This can be traced back to the origins of this writing in Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, where a direct iconic representation of a meaning shifted to take on a specific consonant value, and this was codified for only consonants, with vowels unwritten. That is still the case today in Arabic, Hebrew, etc. (Aside: I prefer to think of so-called the "long vowels" as vowel-holding consonants, i.e. semivowels, etc., similar to how /i/ and /j/ or /u/ and /w/ may be represented with the same letter in alphabets, such as the letter "V" in Latin.) Consonant-only writing isn't such an obvious fit for another kind of language where the vowels are equally important morphologically. The Arabic script has been adapted for a number of other languages, so I'm not suggesting it is impossible or that it won't work, but that it probably wouldn't arise naturally, and due to this borrowing, it probably doesn't tell us much about the structure of those languages. (On the other hand, the Arabic script might have been a good fit for Turkish given that vowel harmony means there are few contrasts to represent within vowels, so that's another topic to look at.)</div><div> </div><div>We might also ask what the introduction of spaces can tell us about the structure of European languages. Perhaps the highly fusional inflection of Latin and Greek was in itself enough to signal word boundaries and morphological structure in general given certain typical orthotactic(?) forms were much more frequent than others (similar to Japanese hiragana marking functional morphemes).</div><div> </div><div>But I don't think that adopting the existing traditions of English/European orthography to a new, previously unwritten language necessarily tells us very much about the morphological structure of that language, because it will more likely be heavily influenced by the norms of English. This might be less likely in cases where the speakers of the language are illiterate before writing their own language, rather than biliterate(?) with English or another European language (or Indonesian, etc., following similar conventions). Where they write spaces might give us some suggestions about word boundaries, of course. But I think it is even more interesting to see what non-alphabetic scripts can tell us about the languages that they represent.</div><div> </div><div>Unfortunately we don't have a substantial number of truly independent writing systems around the world to really test these ideas, but it's certainly interesting to think about. There are a few more relevant examples, like how Chinese simply has no need for a word "word" because it has almost exclusively monosyllabic morphemes and characters, as well as some idiomatic combinations of them (i.e. compounds). That tells us something about the morphological structure of Chinese too, I think.</div><div> </div><div>Whether any of this is really about "wordhood" is not yet clear to me, but I do think that different orthographic traditions can give insights into morphological structure in general. One way of looking at it is that orthographies are a kind of formal analysis for morphological structure, and as we all know, analyses are informed by but do not determine linguistic organization. So if we think about writers as linguists, that may be helpful in this discussion. In fact, just like there are different grammatical theories, it may be that different orthographies are different theories of wordhood or similar levels of structure. If so, it may be that "words" (in the European sense) are just one way of looking at languages, and that they are an analysis, but not necessarily a fundamental part of linguistic structure. Or more interestingly, it may be that different languages have different units on part with "words", often reflected by orthographic systems. This is also why it's so interesting to look at proposals for writing signed languages, which introduce other kinds of challenges. I think this is generally in line with the conclusions of your 2011 paper, Martin.</div><div> </div><div>Last week I assigned my students a paper about questions of polysynthetic wordhood in Cree and Dakota (<a href="https://doi.org/10.1075/cilt.174.08rus" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1075/cilt.174.08rus</a>), and the paper emphasized that speakers of these languages would often write much shorter words (with spaces between them) than expected according to the traditional polysynthetic analysis of linguists. But I am suspicious that they may be constrained by what they expect written "words" to look like due to familiarity with English, and I was left wondering, most importantly, what an original, indigenous script for Cree or Dakota would look like: what is the ideal way to write these languages, not how English writing can be borrowed for them. (I should add that Cree is often written in Canadian syllabics, but I think that is a general writing system, and according to Wikipedia designed by a linguist, so it may have other biases. But perhaps a syllabary has other advantages suitable for "polysynthetic" languages, however their structure is best analyze-- one option is that there are multiple word-like levels in their structure, rather than a unique level, and in that case a syllabary seems like a nice compromise to divide it into iterated units.)</div><div> </div><div>Daniel</div></div> <div><div>On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 8:29 AM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex"><div>This is a really interesting thread! It still seems to me that the term "word" has a well-understood orthographic sense, but no well-understood general phonological or morphosyntactic sense. Writing is now almost universal, but it does appear that most unwritten languages did not have a word for 'word' (as opposed to 'speech' or 'what someone said').<br><br>I agree with Ian that "the emergence of spaces is sufficient evidence of wordhood", in the sense of orthographic wordhood – because spaces define orthographic words.<br><br>As the fascinating discussion of the history of reading has made clear, reading is by no means a straightforward or natural activity. It's more like riding a bike – extremely useful, but dependent on highly specific cultural traditions and practices.<br><br>It may well be that orthographic spaces are primarily an autonomous device to facilitate reading, like punctuation, paragraphs, section headings, and typographical ascenders/descenders in Latin script – but with no direct relationship to anything in the spoken language. As our grammatical investigations began with written language (<em>gram-matica</em> originally means 'study of writing', cf. <em>graph-</em> 'write'), it is natural that it was based on the study of written language. <em>Sciptio continua</em> may simply be a bit harder to read than spaced writing (just as I find Cyrillic a bit harder to read than Latin, because there are fewer ascenders/descenders).<br><br>So I'm not sure if we can presuppose that spaces between words tell us anything about non-written language structure.<br><br>Best,<br>Martin<br> <div>Am 26.11.21 um 11:54 schrieb JOO, Ian [Student]:</div><blockquote>
<div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:"times new roman"">Dear
David,</span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-family:"times new roman"">thank you for
introducing your interesting paper which I’ll have a look
into soon.</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"times new roman"">But, I don’t think
speakers not employing spaces necessarily indicates the
absence of wordhood.</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"times new roman"">In many traditional
orthographies, there are no spaces at all: Thai, Tibetan,
Khmer, Japanese, pre-modern Korean, etc.</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"times new roman"">But that wouldn’t
necessarily mean that Thai speakers don’t perceive words.</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"times new roman"">Many orthographies
only transcribe consonants - but that wouldn’t mean that the
speakers don’t perceive vowels as phonological units.</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"times new roman"">So I think the
emergence of spaces is sufficient, but not necessary,
evidence of wordhood.</span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
Regards,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
</div>
<div>On 26 Nov 2021, 6:45 PM +0800,
David Gil <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"><gil@shh.mpg.de></a>, wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:thin solid grey;margin:5px;padding-left:10px">
<div>Following on Nikolaus' comment,
it is also an experiment that is performed whenever speakers
of an unwritten language decide to introduce an orthography
for the first time: Do they insert spaces, and if so where?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I wrote about about this in Gil
(2020), with reference to a naturalistic corpus of SMS
messages in Riau Indonesian, produced in 2003, which was the
year everybody in the village I was staying in got their
first mobile phones and suddenly had to figure out how to
write their language. In the 2020 article, my focus was
more on the presence or absence of evidence for bound
morphology, and less on whether they introduce spaces in the
first case. What I did not mention there, but which is most
germane to Ian's query, is the latter question, whether they
use spaces at all. In fact, my corpus contains lots of
messages that were written without spaces at all. Within a
couple of years the orthography became more
conventionalized, and everybody started using spaces, but to
begin with, at least, it seemed like many speakers were not
entertaining any (meta-)linguistic notion of 'word'
whatsoever.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(BTW, in Riau and many other
dialects of Indonesian, the word for 'word',
<i>kata</i>, also means 'say'.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>David</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left:27pt;text-align:justify">
Gil,
David (2020) "What Does It Mean to Be an Isolating
Language? The Case of Riau Indonesian", in D. Gil and A.
Schapper eds.,
<i>Austronesian Undressed: How and Why Languages Become
Isolating</i>, John Benjamins, Amsterdam, 9-96.</p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On 26/11/2021 12:11, Nikolaus P
Himmelmann wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Hi<br>
</p>
<div>On 26/11/2021 10:17, JOO, Ian
[Student] wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
The question would be, when one asks a speaker of a
given language to divide a sentence into words, would
the number of words be consistent throughout different
speakers?<br>
It would be an interesting experiment. I’d be happy to
be informed of any previous study who conducted such
an experiment.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes, indeed. And it is an experiment, though largely
uncontrolled, that is carried out whenever someone carries
out fieldwork on an undocumented lect. In this context,
speakers provide evidence for word units in two ways: a)
in elicitation when prompted by pointing or with a word
from a contact language; b) when chunking a recording into
chunks that can be written down by the researcher.</p>
<p>In my experience, speakers across a given community are
pretty consistent in both activities though one may
distinguish two basic types speakers. One group provides
word-like units, so when you ask for "stone" you get a
minimal form for stone. The other primarily provides
utterance-like units. So you do not get "stone" but rather
"look at this stone", "how big the stone is", "stones for
building ovens" or the like.</p>
<p>Depending on the language, there is some variation in the
units provided in both activities but this is typically
restricted to the kind of phenomena that later on cause
the main problems in the analytical reconstruction of a
word unit, i.e. mostly phenomena that come under the broad
term of "clitics". In my view, one should clearly
distinguish between these analytical reconstructions,
which are basic building blocks of grammatial
descriptions, and the "natural" units provided by
speakers, which are primary data providing the basis for
the description.<br>
</p>
<p>Best</p>
<p>Nikolaus<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre>--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): <span>+972-526117713</span>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): <span>+62-81344082091</span>
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