<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Ian, <br></div><div><br></div><div>I
agree with Larry that there are marginal cases that could be worth
excluding, but if you're looking to make a binary choice I'd probably
side with Hartmut (and Bloch). A blanket ban on any phonemes that were
introduced via loanwords would exclude sounds that are clearly part of
the synchronic phonology in many cases. To take an obvious English
example, it would imply that any time a speaker produces a word like
'vision' or 'measure' they are making a foreign [ʒ] sound that somehow
doesn't truly belong to the language. This seems particularly unhelpful
in cases where a massive portion of the lexicon is made up of loanwords
dating back hundreds of years, like the French/Latin loans in English,
Chinese loans in Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese, Arab/Persian loans in
Uyghur, etc. <br></div><div><br></div><div>If you have a more
fine-grained way to indicate in your database the difference between
well-entrenched, frequent, and/or old loan phonemes and marginal cases
like sounds from very recent loanwords ('Facebook'), sounds that are
actually replaced by a native phoneme by many/most speakers ('Bach'), or
perhaps sounds with very low type/token frequency, such information
could be useful. Your final decision might also depend on the specific
purpose(s) of your database. But all other things equal, if you're
looking for a binary decision, it seems to me you'd do better to include
xenophones than leave them out.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers!</div><div>Michael<br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:52 AM Larry M. HYMAN <<a href="mailto:hyman@berkeley.edu">hyman@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear Ian,<div><br></div><div>As
a phonologist, what I would want to know is if the loanword phonology
(sounds) had significantly affected the sound system. Your example of
learnèd [x] in English seems rather clear to me--it should be left out.
When I try to teach this sound and transcription to undergraduates with
no linguistic background, I mention its pronunciation in "Bach" and
"chutzpah" (in my speech). This doesn't seem to help much, as they do
not pronounce Bach with [x] (let alone van Gogh :-)! On the other hand,
it is useful to have this information for languages that have been in
more sustained contact with others, e.g. all of the cases of English or
Swahili creeping into Eastern Bantu languages that otherwise lack
certain sounds in their native vocabulary. Your problem will be making
such decisions for each language. I assume that if you include this
information in your database you would identify which sounds are only in
loanwords.</div><div><br>Good luck!</div><div><br>Larry</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 11:50 PM JOO, Ian [Student] <<a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk" target="_blank">ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div name="messageBodySection">
<div dir="auto">Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
I would like to seek your advice on a database I am making.<br>
For my doctoral project, I am compiling a phonological database of 700+ Eurasian languages.<br>
The database includes basic information such as the list of word-finally
permitted phonemes, maximal number of onsets in a syllable, etc.<br>
For this database, I would like your opinion on whether to include xenophonic (loanword-phonological) information or not.<br>
For example, should the database include phonemes that are only present in loanwords (such as /x/ in English)?<br>
If the language does not allow codas in native word/ but allow them in loanwords, should that information be allowed as well?<br>
If you were using the database, would you find such information helpful?<br>
<br>
Pros of adding the xenophonic information: <br>
The database would be more complete. Some xenophonic features can be
very old (such as onset clusters in Tagalog, word-initial /r/ in
Japanese, etc.), so in a sense they are "nativized" (although they may
be still marked). If I mark the native phonology and
the loanword phonology distinctly in my database (e. g. Including /ts/
in French phonology but specifying that it only appears in loanwords),
then the user can use the database with or without xenophonic
information.<br>
<br>
Cons:<br>
The problem of including xenophonic information is that, when
considering loanwords, it is difficult to judge what is part of a
language's phonology or not.<br>
For example /f/ occurs in very recent Korean loanwords such as /f/ail
'file' or /f/eyispwuk 'Facebook' and it's difficult to say if this is
really a part of Korean phonology.<br>
Many minority language speakers are also fluent in their national
language (such as Russian or Spanish) and they may pronounce loanwords
from the national language in their 'original' pronunciation (such as
Tuvan speakers pronouncing Russian loanwords in Russian
pronunciation) and it's difficult to say if this means Russian
phonology has fully integrated into Tuvan phonology.<br>
So where to divide the line between what is purely foreign and what has been nativized?<br>
On the other hand, distinguishing phonological features that are only
present in loanwords from those that are also present in native words is
quite straightforward and less controversial (although there is also
the problem that we do not always know if a word
is a loanword or not).<br>
Lastly, since I've already finished a good part of the database (about
15%), if I want to also include xenophonic information then I would have
to go through the whole database again, so there's this practical
issue.<br>
<br>
So I would appreciate your advice on whether including xenophonic
information would be substantially beneficial to you or not, if you were
using the database.</div>
</div>
<div name="messageSignatureSection"><br>
>From Hong Kong,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Director, France-Berkeley Fund</div><div>University of California, Berkeley</div><div><a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Michael Fiddler</div><div>PhD student</div><div>Department of Linguistics</div><div>University of California, Santa Barbara<br></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:52 AM Larry M. HYMAN <<a href="mailto:hyman@berkeley.edu">hyman@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear Ian,<div><br></div><div>As a phonologist, what I would want to know is if the loanword phonology (sounds) had significantly affected the sound system. Your example of learnèd [x] in English seems rather clear to me--it should be left out. When I try to teach this sound and transcription to undergraduates with no linguistic background, I mention its pronunciation in "Bach" and "chutzpah" (in my speech). This doesn't seem to help much, as they do not pronounce Bach with [x] (let alone van Gogh :-)! On the other hand, it is useful to have this information for languages that have been in more sustained contact with others, e.g. all of the cases of English or Swahili creeping into Eastern Bantu languages that otherwise lack certain sounds in their native vocabulary. Your problem will be making such decisions for each language. I assume that if you include this information in your database you would identify which sounds are only in loanwords.</div><div><br>Good luck!</div><div><br>Larry</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 11:50 PM JOO, Ian [Student] <<a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk" target="_blank">ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div name="messageBodySection">
<div dir="auto">Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
I would like to seek your advice on a database I am making.<br>
For my doctoral project, I am compiling a phonological database of 700+ Eurasian languages.<br>
The database includes basic information such as the list of word-finally permitted phonemes, maximal number of onsets in a syllable, etc.<br>
For this database, I would like your opinion on whether to include xenophonic (loanword-phonological) information or not.<br>
For example, should the database include phonemes that are only present in loanwords (such as /x/ in English)?<br>
If the language does not allow codas in native word/ but allow them in loanwords, should that information be allowed as well?<br>
If you were using the database, would you find such information helpful?<br>
<br>
Pros of adding the xenophonic information: <br>
The database would be more complete. Some xenophonic features can be very old (such as onset clusters in Tagalog, word-initial /r/ in Japanese, etc.), so in a sense they are "nativized" (although they may be still marked). If I mark the native phonology and
the loanword phonology distinctly in my database (e. g. Including /ts/ in French phonology but specifying that it only appears in loanwords), then the user can use the database with or without xenophonic information.<br>
<br>
Cons:<br>
The problem of including xenophonic information is that, when considering loanwords, it is difficult to judge what is part of a language's phonology or not.<br>
For example /f/ occurs in very recent Korean loanwords such as /f/ail 'file' or /f/eyispwuk 'Facebook' and it's difficult to say if this is really a part of Korean phonology.<br>
Many minority language speakers are also fluent in their national language (such as Russian or Spanish) and they may pronounce loanwords from the national language in their 'original' pronunciation (such as Tuvan speakers pronouncing Russian loanwords in Russian
pronunciation) and it's difficult to say if this means Russian phonology has fully integrated into Tuvan phonology.<br>
So where to divide the line between what is purely foreign and what has been nativized?<br>
On the other hand, distinguishing phonological features that are only present in loanwords from those that are also present in native words is quite straightforward and less controversial (although there is also the problem that we do not always know if a word
is a loanword or not).<br>
Lastly, since I've already finished a good part of the database (about 15%), if I want to also include xenophonic information then I would have to go through the whole database again, so there's this practical issue.<br>
<br>
So I would appreciate your advice on whether including xenophonic information would be substantially beneficial to you or not, if you were using the database.</div>
</div>
<div name="messageSignatureSection"><br>
>From Hong Kong,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
</div>
<img alt="" src="https://www.polyu.edu.hk/emaildisclaimer/PolyU_Email_Signature.jpg">
<p><br>
<em><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">Disclaimer:</font></em></p>
<p></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><i><font size="3" face="Times New Roman" color="black"><span>This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not the intended recipient, you
should delete this message and notify the sender and The Hong Kong Polytechnic University (the University) immediately. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.</span></font></i></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><i><span><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">The University specifically denies any responsibility for the accuracy or quality of information obtained through University E-mail Facilities. Any views and opinions expressed are
only those of the author(s) and do not necessarily represent those of the University and the University accepts no liability whatsoever for any losses or damages incurred or caused to any party as a result of the use of such information.</font></span></i></p>
</div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Director, France-Berkeley Fund</div><div>University of California, Berkeley</div><div><a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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