<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Sorry, I meant "Occurrences of /ʒ/ in medial position could be
explained via some phonological rule ..."</p>
<p>I'd be interested in any counter examples to my claim that medial
/ʒ/ is only found before unstressed syllables. Note that I refer
to standard British English here. I know that there are varieties
of English where you say something like [prəʒu:m].</p>
<p>Best,<br>
Volker</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 5em; line-height: 1.2em; vertical-align:
super; font-weight: normal;"><span title="Representation in the
International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA"></span></span><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/6/21 10:04, Volker Gast wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:793dccb5-bb24-df01-6e07-0c08d31397a0@uni-jena.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>As for /ʒ/ in English, I think you have to distinguish between
(i) its use in relatively recent loans, e.g. 'rouge', and
'garage' (UK pronunciation), where I would assume that it still
has a foreign ring, and (ii) its (media)l use in older loans
like 'measure' and 'pleasure', where it is probably felt to be
native. The latter sound only occurs before unstressed
syllables, as far as I know, at least in standard British
English. In front of stressed syllables /zj/ has been preserved,
e.g. 'presume'. In other words, the opposition between /ʒ/ and
/zj/ is not distinctive. Note also that in initial position, /ʒ/
is regularly turned into an affricate in loan words, e.g.
'journey', which points to a non-native status. It has been
preserved in others, e.g. 'gigue', but here again I would assume
that most speakers of English would clearly identify this word
as a French loan.<br>
</p>
<p>So I think it would not be entirely unreasonable to say that
/ʒ/ is not a "fully" native sound of English. Occurrences of
/zj/ in medial position could be explained via some phonological
rule, with an underlying /zj/-sequence. I am of course aware
that most phonemes in most languages differ in terms of their
degrees of "distributional generality", and /ʒ/ nicely fills a
gap in the grid of English fricatives. But that's probably an
argument that we shouldn't use.</p>
<p>Best,<br>
Volker<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/6/21 08:34, fcosw5 wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1638779644.118826.fcosw5@scu.edu.tw">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge">
<style data-m2k-style="">html,body{height:100%;}body{box-sizing:border-box;padding:8px;margin:0;}</style>
<div>If it's feasible, I think I would recommend a fairly
fine-grained inventory, in which all the phonemes actually
used in the relevant language are included, but special note
taken of those phonemes that occur *only* in loan-words. And,
going beyond that, maybe make further note of loan-words that
are *generally recognized* within the community as loan-words
(e.g., I think most native-English-speakers would not
recognize 'measure' as a loan-word), and if the introduction
of such a xenophone has had a noticeable effect on the
language's phonological inventory.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Steven</div>
<div><br>
-----Original message-----<br>
<b>From:</b>JOO, Ian [Student]<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"
moz-do-not-send="true"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a><br>
<b>To:</b>LINGTYP<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Date: </b> Thu, 02 Dec 2021 15:49:48<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] To include xenophones or not<br>
<title></title>
</div>
<div name="messageBodySection">
<div dir="auto">Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
I would like to seek your advice on a database I am making.<br>
For my doctoral project, I am compiling a phonological
database of 700+ Eurasian languages.<br>
The database includes basic information such as the list of
word-finally permitted phonemes, maximal number of onsets in
a syllable, etc.<br>
For this database, I would like your opinion on whether to
include xenophonic (loanword-phonological) information or
not.<br>
For example, should the database include phonemes that are
only present in loanwords (such as /x/ in English)?<br>
If the language does not allow codas in native word/ but
allow them in loanwords, should that information be allowed
as well?<br>
If you were using the database, would you find such
information helpful?<br>
<br>
Pros of adding the xenophonic information: <br>
The database would be more complete. Some xenophonic
features can be very old (such as onset clusters in Tagalog,
word-initial /r/ in Japanese, etc.), so in a sense they are
"nativized" (although they may be still marked). If I mark
the native phonology and the loanword phonology distinctly
in my database (e. g. Including /ts/ in French phonology but
specifying that it only appears in loanwords), then the user
can use the database with or without xenophonic information.<br>
<br>
Cons:<br>
The problem of including xenophonic information is that,
when considering loanwords, it is difficult to judge what is
part of a language's phonology or not.<br>
For example /f/ occurs in very recent Korean loanwords such
as /f/ail 'file' or /f/eyispwuk 'Facebook' and it's
difficult to say if this is really a part of Korean
phonology.<br>
Many minority language speakers are also fluent in their
national language (such as Russian or Spanish) and they may
pronounce loanwords from the national language in their
'original' pronunciation (such as Tuvan speakers pronouncing
Russian loanwords in Russian pronunciation) and it's
difficult to say if this means Russian phonology has fully
integrated into Tuvan phonology.<br>
So where to divide the line between what is purely foreign
and what has been nativized?<br>
On the other hand, distinguishing phonological features that
are only present in loanwords from those that are also
present in native words is quite straightforward and less
controversial (although there is also the problem that we do
not always know if a word is a loanword or not).<br>
Lastly, since I've already finished a good part of the
database (about 15%), if I want to also include xenophonic
information then I would have to go through the whole
database again, so there's this practical issue.<br>
<br>
So I would appreciate your advice on whether including
xenophonic information would be substantially beneficial to
you or not, if you were using the database.</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div name="messageSignatureSection"><br>
From Hong Kong,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
</div>
<div>
<style type="text/css">p
{margin-top:12px;
margin-bottom:12px}div.WordSection1
{}</style><img alt=""
src="https://www.polyu.edu.hk/emaildisclaimer/PolyU_Email_Signature.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true"> </div>
<p><br>
<em><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">Disclaimer:</font></em></p>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><i><font size="3" face="Times New
Roman" color="black"><span>This message (including any
attachments) contains confidential information intended
for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not
the intended recipient, you should delete this message
and notify the sender and The Hong Kong Polytechnic
University (the University) immediately. Any disclosure,
copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking
of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited and
may be unlawful.</span></font></i></p>
<div> </div>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><i><span><font size="3"
face="Times New Roman">The University specifically
denies any responsibility for the accuracy or quality of
information obtained through University E-mail
Facilities. Any views and opinions expressed are only
those of the author(s) and do not necessarily represent
those of the University and the University accepts no
liability whatsoever for any losses or damages incurred
or caused to any party as a result of the use of such
information.</font></span></i></p>
<div> _______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a
href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp"
target="new_win" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>