<div dir='auto'>Dear all,<div dir="auto">In Persian there is "vocative word+insult word (adjective)" which seems to fit the definition:</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">?ey ?ahmaq</div><div dir="auto">VOC idiot</div><div dir="auto">"You idiot".</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Non insult words do not appear in this construction.</div><div dir="auto">Best</div><div dir="auto">Mohammad</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 15 Dec 2021 14:09, Riccardo Giomi <rgiomi@campus.ul.pt> wrote:<br type="attribution" /><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dear all,</div><div><br /></div><div>Thank you very much for a nice set of data and references. This will be extremely useful. <br /></div><div><br /></div><div>I will reply to some of you privately, asking for further comments/data/references. In the mean time, any further feedback is of course more than welcome!</div><div><br /></div><div>@Maia & Paolo: I agree with Paolo that <i>pezzo di / espèce de</i> are not grammaticalized, although not for the reason he mentions. After all the working hypothesis is precisely that languages can have grammaticalized means of marking a speech act as an insult, so, according to this hypothesis, the fact that <i>pezzo di X</i> never occurs with positively connotated epithets does not entail that the construction is not grammaticalized.</div><div>A different type of argument for regarding these as lexical constructions is the fact that premodifying adjectives must agree with <i>pezzo </i>and not with the epithet (and I guess the same goes for French <i>espèce</i>), cf. <i>brutt<u>o</u> pezzo di cretina</i>, as opposed to *<i>brutt<u>a</u> pezzo di cretina</i>. This suggests that <i>pezzo </i>is the head of the construction; if it had been a grammaticalized element, I suppose agreement would have been with the epithet. At any rate, these nouns are not really reserved for marking a speech act as an insult -- they can also occur in other types of speech act, e.g. declarative <i>Quel pezzo di X mi ha rubato la bici </i>(roughly, 'That dirty X stole my bike').</div><div><br /></div><div>Best wishes to all,</div><div>Riccardo<br /></div></div><br /><div class="elided-text"><div dir="ltr">Paolo Ramat <<a href="mailto:paoram@unipv.it">paoram@unipv.it</a>> escreveu no dia quarta, 15/12/2021 à(s) 11:03:<br /></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb( 204 , 204 , 204 );padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">In Italian too <i>pezzo di X </i>'espèce de X' , as in <i>pezzo di idiota </i>and the very insulting, derogating<i> (</i>but very much used)<i> pezzo di merda, </i>appears just in derogating expressions: you will never hear <i> *pezzo di genio, </i>nor<i> *pezzo di benefattore ! </i>This is, I think, an argument for not considering the construct <i>'pezzo di X ' </i>as belonging to the grammar (Maia).<div><br /></div><div>Paolo</div><div><br clear="all" /><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb( 34 , 34 , 34 )">Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat</span><div style="color:rgb( 34 , 34 , 34 )"><div>Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br /><div>'Academia Europaea'</div><div>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</div></div><div><div>Università di Pavia (retired)</div><div>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</div></div><div><br /></div></div><div style="color:rgb( 34 , 34 , 34 )">piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</div><div style="color:rgb( 34 , 34 , 34 )">##39 0382 27027</div><div style="color:rgb( 34 , 34 , 34 )">347 044 98 44</div></div></div></div><br /></div></div><br /><div class="elided-text"><div dir="ltr">Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 07:48 Nigel Vincent <<a href="mailto:nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk">nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk</a>> ha scritto:<br /></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb( 204 , 204 , 204 );padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
Maia is of course right that the English 'you X' is a way of insulting people but that depends on X being an insult. The same construction can be used to praise: 'you genius', 'you darling', etc.</div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
Nigel</div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<br />
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<br />
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:'tahoma';font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:'tahoma';font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:'tahoma';font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:'tahoma';font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:'tahoma';font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:'tahoma';font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:'tahoma';font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:'tahoma';font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:'tahoma';font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:'tahoma';font-size:13px">Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE<br />
Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics<br />
The University of Manchester</div>
<div style="font-family:'tahoma';font-size:13px">
<div><br />
</div>
<div>Linguistics & English Language<br />
School of Arts, Languages and Cultures<br />
</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>The University of Manchester</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span><br />
</div>
<div><br />
</div>
<div><br />
</div>
<div></div>
<a href="https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent%28f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc%29.html">https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" />
<div dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Maia Ponsonnet <<a href="mailto:maia.ponsonnet@uwa.edu.au">maia.ponsonnet@uwa.edu.au</a>><br />
<b>Sent:</b> 15 December 2021 1:54 AM<br />
<b>To:</b> Jussi Ylikoski <<a href="mailto:jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi">jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi</a>>; <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br />
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
Hello, </div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<br />
</div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
Doesn't the English "you idiot" (you [insult]) qualify as an example? </div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
Copula-free adposition is not standard in English predication, and it seems largely limited to second person sing and derogatory adjectives? </div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
</div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
French has "espèce d'idiot" - not sure whether it qualifies as grammatical or lexical. </div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
Cheers, Maïa</div>
<div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif , 'emojifont' , 'apple color emoji' , 'segoe ui emoji' , 'notocoloremoji' , 'segoe ui symbol' , 'android emoji' , 'emojisymbols'">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"></p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif , serif , 'emojifont';font-size:16px">
<span style="font-size:small">Dr Maïa Ponsonnet</span><br style="font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:small" />
<span style="font-size:small">Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif , serif , 'emojifont';font-size:16px">
<span style="font-size:small">Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif , serif , 'emojifont';font-size:16px">
<span style="font-size:small">Building M257, Room 2.36</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif , serif , 'emojifont';font-size:16px">
<span style="font-size:small">The University of Western Australia</span><br style="font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:small" />
<span style="font-size:small">35 Stirling Hwy, </span><span style="font-size:small">Perth, WA (6009), </span><span style="font-size:small">Australia</span><br style="font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:small" />
<span style="font-size:small">P. +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - </span><span style="font-size:small">M. +61 (0) 468 571 030</span></p>
<span style="font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif , serif , 'emojifont';font-size:small"></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<font face="Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, EmojiFont, Apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, NotoColorEmoji, Segoe UI Symbol, Android Emoji, EmojiSymbols"></font><br />
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:'calibri' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif , 'emojifont' , 'apple color emoji' , 'segoe ui emoji' , 'notocoloremoji' , 'segoe ui symbol' , 'android emoji' , 'emojisymbols'">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div style="font-family:'calibri' , 'arial' , 'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<br />
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" />
<div dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Jussi Ylikoski <<a href="mailto:jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi">jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi</a>><br />
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 15 December 2021 6:09 AM<br />
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br />
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:'tahoma' , 'geneva' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
Dear Riccardo and all,</div>
<div style="font-family:'tahoma' , 'geneva' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<br />
</div>
<div style="font-family:'tahoma' , 'geneva' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
D’Avis and Meibauer's paper "Du Idiot! Din idiot! Pseudo-vocative constructions and insults in German (and Swedish)" (<a href="https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.degruyter.com%2Fdocument%2Fdoi%2F10.1515%2F9783110304176.189%2Fhtml&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7Ccc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637751168309659999%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Qm0dhs6L0wUoC0ozwJeshZnGlztNFYs2tB0%2FwjH91yo%3D&reserved=0">https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110304176.189/html</a>)
might be of interest; see also the thirty studies referring to this paper according to Google Scholar:
<a href="https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fcites%3D9645899484374998601&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7Ccc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637751168309659999%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=SiEIXLU6h58y3oPt6JDnSMiqxAD9CDEmDdvrhfbB%2F64%3D&reserved=0">
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=9645899484374998601</a> (and so forth).</div>
<div style="font-family:'tahoma' , 'geneva' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<br />
</div>
<div style="font-family:'tahoma' , 'geneva' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
Best regards,</div>
<div style="font-family:'tahoma' , 'geneva' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<br />
</div>
<div style="font-family:'tahoma' , 'geneva' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
Jussi<br />
</div>
<div>
</div>
<br />
<div>
<div></div>
<div style="font-family:'tahoma' , 'geneva' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<br />
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" />
<div dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>Frá:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> fyrir hönd Sebastian Nordhoff <<a href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de">sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de</a>><br />
<b>Sent:</b> þriðjudagur, 14. desember 2021 22:50<br />
<b>Til:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br />
<b>Efni:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div>Dear Riccardo,<br />
Sinhala has several levels of politeness in imperatives (marked by <br />
affixes), one of which would be rendered as "Do X, you $#!% !!!". I once <br />
nearly got beaten up when underestimating the impact that the use of <br />
this form can have. I can look up the reference if you want to.<br />
Best wishes<br />
Sebastian<br />
<br />
On 12/14/21 19:49, Riccardo Giomi wrote:<br />
> Dear all,<br />
> <br />
> A student of mine would like to investigate the linguistic coding of <br />
> insults across languages. She is particularly interested in finding out <br />
> whether languages can have dedicated (uses of) grammatical <br />
> forms/constructions for this specific purpose. The best example I could <br />
> come up with so far is the use of the Portuguese third person reflexive <br />
> possessive adjective (determiner in Brazilian Portuguese) /seu/sua/ with <br />
> epithets which are meant as insults. An example would be<br />
> <br />
> /Cala=te, seu burro!/<br />
> <a href="http://shut.up.IMP.2.SG">shut.up.IMP.2.SG</a> <<a href="https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshut.up.imp.2.sg%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7Ccc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637751168309659999%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Wsd38z3IS7%2FaqTyJkGPUkncKamWvN1IwGXTun%2F7NpTI%3D&reserved=0">http://shut.up.IMP.2.SG</a>>=2.SG.OBJ
3.SG.REFL.POSS <br />
> <a href="http://donkey.M.SG">donkey.M.SG</a> <<a href="https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonkey.m.sg%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7Ccc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637751168309659999%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=DAnllkzoCwHEhKOA07WYqh25abAsY2i7%2Fp4%2Bmj134VM%3D&reserved=0">http://donkey.M.SG</a>><br />
> 'Shut up, you idiot!'<br />
> <br />
> (Where, funnily enough, the third person of the adjective/determiner is <br />
> presumably the polite form!) This is an interesting case, I think, <br />
> because as far as I can see you never use /seu/sua /in 'plain' <br />
> vocatives, nor with terms of endearment, nor, for that matter, with NPs <br />
> which are not used as invocations.<br />
> <br />
> I am wondering whether anyone is aware of a language which has some <br />
> grammaticalized form or construction that can be used in this specific <br />
> way. Note that I am not interested in, say, abusive pronouns or <br />
> honorifics or general expressions of the speaker's disappointment <br />
> ('frustrative' markers) but only in grammaticalized means of marking the <br />
> speech act as an insult.<br />
> <br />
> Many thanks in advance and best wishes to all,<br />
> Riccardo<br />
> <br />
> -- <br />
> Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.<br />
> University of Liège<br />
> Département de langues modernes : linguistique, littérature et traduction<br />
> Research group /Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues/<br />
> F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)<br />
> //<br />
> <br />
> _______________________________________________<br />
> Lingtyp mailing list<br />
> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br />
> <a href="https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7Ccc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637751168309659999%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=tXVv1UmQRpc6FL%2FBIEeQEkvgOZvHNaC%2BkzSfZI9wJ%2BY%3D&reserved=0">
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br />
> <br />
_______________________________________________<br />
Lingtyp mailing list<br />
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br />
<a href="https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7Ccc94c4625b3c491e5c2808d9bf4e9dc5%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637751168309659999%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=tXVv1UmQRpc6FL%2FBIEeQEkvgOZvHNaC%2BkzSfZI9wJ%2BY%3D&reserved=0">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br />
</div>
</span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br />
Lingtyp mailing list<br />
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br />
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br />
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br />
Lingtyp mailing list<br />
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br />
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br />
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>