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Hello, </div>

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I agree with all this. </div>

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An interesting observation is that in French, 'espèce de' is versatile in gender agreement. </div>

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I would accept "une espèce de crétin" (as more formal) but would say "un espèce de crétin", treating "crétin" as the head. </div>

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This said, I also agree that it is not specialized for insults. </div>

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It is simply an evaluative (pejorative) construction. </div>

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You can use it with inanimates as well:</div>

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 "ils nous ont servi un espèce de ragout, c'était dégueulasse."</div>

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"they served us some sort of stew, it was disgusting."</div>

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Thank you very much for this very interesting discussion, and I would be keen to get a summary if someone creates one. </div>

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Kind regards, Maïa</div>

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<span style="font-size:small">Dr Maïa Ponsonnet</span><br style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:small">

<span style="font-size:small">Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics</span></p>

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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Riccardo Giomi <rgiomi@campus.ul.pt><br>

<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 15 December 2021 6:39 PM<br>

<b>To:</b> Paolo Ramat <paoram@unipv.it><br>

<b>Cc:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>

<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)</font>

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<div>Dear all,</div>

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<div>Thank you very much for a nice set of data and references. This will be extremely useful.

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<div>I will reply to some of you privately, asking for further comments/data/references. In the mean time, any further feedback is of course more than welcome!</div>

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<div>@Maia & Paolo: I agree with Paolo that <i>pezzo di / espèce de</i> are not grammaticalized, although not for the reason he mentions. After all the working hypothesis is precisely that languages can have grammaticalized means of marking a speech act as

 an insult, so, according to this hypothesis, the fact that <i>pezzo di X</i> never occurs with positively connotated epithets does not entail that the construction is not grammaticalized.</div>

<div>A different type of argument for regarding these as lexical constructions is the fact that premodifying adjectives must agree with

pezzo and not with the epithet (and I guess the same goes for French espèce), cf.

<i>brutt<u>o</u> pezzo di cretina</i>, as opposed to *<i>brutt<u>a</u> pezzo di cretina</i>. This suggests that

<i>pezzo </i>is the head of the construction; if it had been a grammaticalized element, I suppose agreement would have been with the epithet. At any rate, these nouns are not really reserved for marking a speech act as an insult -- they can also occur in other

 types of speech act, e.g. declarative <i>Quel pezzo di X mi ha rubato la bici </i>

(roughly, 'That dirty X stole my bike').</div>

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<div>Best wishes to all,</div>

<div>Riccardo<br>

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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">Paolo Ramat <<a href="mailto:paoram@unipv.it">paoram@unipv.it</a>> escreveu no dia quarta, 15/12/2021 à(s) 11:03:<br>

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<div dir="ltr">In Italian too <i>pezzo di X  </i>'espèce de X' , as in <i>pezzo di idiota

</i>and the very insulting, derogating<i> (</i>but very much used)<i> pezzo di merda, </i>appears  just in derogating expressions: you will never hear <i> *pezzo di  genio,

</i>nor<i> *pezzo di benefattore !  </i>This is, I think, an argument for not considering  the construct

'pezzo di X ' as belonging to the grammar (Maia).

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<div>Paolo</div>

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<div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat</span>

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<div>Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br>

<div>'Academia Europaea'</div>

<div>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</div>

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<div>Università di Pavia (retired)</div>

<div>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</div>

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<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</div>

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<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">347 044 98 44</div>

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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">Il giorno mer 15 dic 2021 alle ore 07:48 Nigel Vincent <<a href="mailto:nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk" target="_blank">nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk</a>> ha scritto:<br>

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Maia is of course right that the English 'you X' is a way of insulting people but that depends on X being an insult. The same construction can be used to praise: 'you genius', 'you darling', etc.</div>

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Nigel</div>

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<div style="font-family:Tahoma; font-size:13px">Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE<br>

Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics<br>

The University of Manchester</div>

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<div>Linguistics & English Language<br>

School of Arts, Languages and Cultures<br>

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<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>The University of Manchester</div>

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<font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Maia Ponsonnet <<a href="mailto:maia.ponsonnet@uwa.edu.au" target="_blank">maia.ponsonnet@uwa.edu.au</a>><br>

<b>Sent:</b> 15 December 2021 1:54 AM<br>

<b>To:</b> Jussi Ylikoski <<a href="mailto:jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi" target="_blank">jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi</a>>;

<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>

<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)</font>

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Hello, </div>

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Doesn't the English "you idiot" (you [insult]) qualify as an example? </div>

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Copula-free adposition is not standard in English predication, and it seems largely limited to second person sing and derogatory adjectives? </div>

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French has "espèce d'idiot" - not sure whether it qualifies as grammatical or lexical. </div>

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Cheers, Maïa</div>

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<span style="font-size:small">Dr Maïa Ponsonnet</span><br style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:small">

<span style="font-size:small">Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics</span></p>

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<span style="font-size:small">Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences</span></p>

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<span style="font-size:small">Building M257, Room 2.36</span></p>

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<span style="font-size:small">The University of Western Australia</span><br style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:small">

<span style="font-size:small">35 Stirling Hwy, </span><span style="font-size:small">Perth, WA (6009), </span><span style="font-size:small">Australia</span><br style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:small">

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<font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Jussi Ylikoski <<a href="mailto:jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi" target="_blank">jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi</a>><br>

<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 15 December 2021 6:09 AM<br>

<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>

<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)</font>

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Dear Riccardo and all,</div>

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<br>

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D’Avis and Meibauer's paper "Du Idiot! Din idiot! Pseudo-vocative constructions and insults in German (and Swedish)" (<a href="https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.degruyter.com%2Fdocument%2Fdoi%2F10.1515%2F9783110304176.189%2Fhtml&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7C18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637751618751334098%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=YtvWy84MP7idITTVxJWQv5Ov5wyyIdzuJmfhb4EM0nk%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110304176.189/html" shash="OrcswZErdngPR9PPylgZ4K6sMhK53dxtdlphLcI8FcB+S4S/eXPueBU7Y9CXhTKiQIghXr2riyR1I6Tf0HuDvRtVJTl1L6z4lQAbPoLi208WFrp2ot4UgN81q9BXw9tf+96HAe0OJ9Lp5H3c7Sk49xJUdcmBa+LWS99bAAkn4wY=" id="x_gmail-m_-7318995592525743576gmail-m_-766327169779748147LPNoLPOWALinkPreview" target="_blank">https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110304176.189/html</a>)

 might be of interest; see also the thirty studies referring to this paper according to Google Scholar:

<a href="https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fcites%3D9645899484374998601&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7C18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637751618751334098%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=tbPuv8Q1wCWZfnqLUSXCpVDRqg1j93uAi6VhEV%2Bjc70%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=9645899484374998601" shash="JTjZQIBiScUVsCvXFHcMYf8RyGgYLK5LnT5KrHz4W+HnkQINcn8k8dFEVwXBXR8otgV01YJxxO/sdROz4tFYmEpE9IHlR++h21m8kd4o8l+QfzHdTG1hHYJLeePJz9ihpwjv2v8ddL8W5sI9rXJEGS2hNYubxtWBfI2e4fUx8ZY=" id="x_gmail-m_-7318995592525743576gmail-m_-766327169779748147LPlnk878646" target="_blank">

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=9645899484374998601</a> (and so forth).</div>

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Best regards,</div>

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Jussi<br>

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<font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>Frá:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> fyrir hönd Sebastian Nordhoff <<a href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de" target="_blank">sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de</a>><br>

<b>Sent:</b> þriðjudagur, 14. desember 2021 22:50<br>

<b>Til:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>

<b>Efni:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Grammatical marking of insults (?)</font>

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<div>Dear Riccardo,<br>

Sinhala has several levels of politeness in imperatives (marked by <br>

affixes), one of which would be rendered as "Do X, you $#!% !!!". I once <br>

nearly got beaten up when underestimating the impact that the use of <br>

this form can have. I can look up the reference if you want to.<br>

Best wishes<br>

Sebastian<br>

<br>

On 12/14/21 19:49, Riccardo Giomi wrote:<br>

> Dear all,<br>

> <br>

> A student of mine would like to investigate the linguistic coding of <br>

> insults across languages. She is particularly interested in finding out <br>

> whether languages can have dedicated (uses of) grammatical <br>

> forms/constructions for this specific purpose. The best example I could <br>

> come up with so far is the use of the Portuguese third person reflexive <br>

> possessive adjective (determiner in Brazilian Portuguese) /seu/sua/ with <br>

> epithets which are meant as insults. An example would be<br>

> <br>

> /Cala=te, seu burro!/<br>

> <a href="https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshut.up.imp.2.sg%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmaia.ponsonnet%40uwa.edu.au%7C18f0840504564a430a4408d9bfb775ad%7C05894af0cb2846d8871674cdb46e2226%7C0%7C0%7C637751618751334098%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=vcUcQyL%2BGHVqyOkN6wRwrCK87T31uIPlv83%2BU4w4yXI%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="http://shut.up.imp.2.sg/" shash="n4ZZTaiPQ1mXE5bmTXzp0hfMsRKrPz740fJHM98fryxzpLzL44OAXPBbTYPIjEuFhAvJ2/wZvRCQlyqJbQAO4dpY6RsUd5lRu6Mhgsexb9Hw9xf6m7pivp9a7xnVCwYhXKE4wYcQsVkAr8aIuSflklI1OQpZ8HwAN3XOsmdSD3E=" target="_blank">

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> 'Shut up, you idiot!'<br>

> <br>

> (Where, funnily enough, the third person of the adjective/determiner is <br>

> presumably the polite form!) This is an interesting case, I think, <br>

> because as far as I can see you never use /seu/sua /in 'plain' <br>

> vocatives, nor with terms of endearment, nor, for that matter, with NPs <br>

> which are not used as invocations.<br>

> <br>

> I am wondering whether anyone is aware of a language which has some <br>

> grammaticalized form or construction that can be used in this specific <br>

> way. Note that I am not interested in, say, abusive pronouns or <br>

> honorifics or general expressions of the speaker's disappointment <br>

> ('frustrative' markers) but only in grammaticalized means of marking the <br>

> speech act as an insult.<br>

> <br>

> Many thanks in advance and best wishes to all,<br>

> Riccardo<br>

> <br>

> -- <br>

> Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.<br>

> University of Liège<br>

> Département de langues modernes : linguistique, littérature et traduction<br>

> Research group /Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues/<br>

> F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)<br>

> //<br>

> <br>

> _______________________________________________<br>

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