<html><head></head><body><div class="ydp9f2f4d68yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: bookman old style, new york, times, serif;"><div style=""><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="">Dear Jesús, all,</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style=""><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="">In Babungo (Grassfields Bantu, Cameroon), the verb <i>kɔ́ </i>'give' is used for 'until' (Schaub 1985).</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="">Similarly to what Laura and Joey pointed out, in Cameroonian French it is common to use 'jusqu'à' clause finally, especially to express intensity. For example: 'Elle a pleuré jusqu'ààà' = 'She cried sooo much'. The lengthening of the vowel also emphasizes the intensity.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style=""><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="">Best wishes,</div><div style="font-family: bookman old style, new york, times, serif;"><br></div><div class="ydp9f2f4d68signature" style="font-family: bookman old style, new york, times, serif;"><div style="font-family:old times, serif;font-size:16px;"><div><span style="font-size:medium;color:rgb(68, 0, 98);font-family:'bookman old style', 'new york', times, serif;">Liliane Hodieb</span></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>
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Le jeudi 6 janvier 2022, 18:06:39 UTC+1, <lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org> a écrit :
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<div><div dir="ltr">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">You can reach the person managing the list at<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp-owner@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp-owner@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-owner@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br></div><div dir="ltr">than "Re: Contents of Lingtyp digest..."<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Today's Topics:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> 1. Re: 'until' clauses in Africa (David Gil)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 2. Re: 'until' clauses in Africa (Joey Lovestrand)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 3. Re: 'until' clauses in Africa (ARNOLD Laura)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 4. [FYI] New Positions in the CALC³ Project (Johann-Mattis List)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">----------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 1<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:05:34 +0200<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: David Gil <<a ymailto="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: <<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] 'until' clauses in Africa<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:eaccfc19-afbd-0879-6b03-115e4c58d586@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:eaccfc19-afbd-0879-6b03-115e4c58d586@shh.mpg.de">eaccfc19-afbd-0879-6b03-115e4c58d586@shh.mpg.de</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Dear Jesús, all,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">In a literary style of Modern Hebrew, one way of marking excessivity is <br></div><div dir="ltr">with the expression /la-ʕayefa/ 'to-tiredness'; examples cited in the <br></div><div dir="ltr">website of the Academy of the Hebrew Language make it clear that the <br></div><div dir="ltr">tiredness is not necessarily meant literally.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Website:<a href="https://hebrew-academy.org.il/2015/11/01/%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%94/" target="_blank">https://hebrew-academy.org.il/2015/11/01/%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%94/</a>[in <br></div><div dir="ltr">Hebrew]<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The same website attributes this usage to Biblical Hebrew, specifically <br></div><div dir="ltr">Isaiah 46:1 "כָּרַע בֵּל קֹרֵס נְבו, הָיוּ עֲצַבֵּיהֶם לַחַיָּה <br></div><div dir="rtl">וְלַבְּהֵמָה; נְשֻׂאֹתֵיכֶם עֲמוּסוֹת מַשָּׂא לַעֲיֵפָה", which, in the <br></div><div dir="ltr">King James translation, reads " Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth; their <br></div><div dir="ltr">idols were upon the beasts and upon the cattle. Your carriages were <br></div><div dir="ltr">heavy laden; they are a burden to the weary beast".<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">However, in this particular Biblical Hebrew verse, "weary" does seem to <br></div><div dir="ltr">permit a literal interpretation, suggesting that the semantic extension <br></div><div dir="ltr">evident in Modern Hebrew took place subsequent to the Biblical <br></div><div dir="ltr">period.But I leave it to those who know more about the history of Hebrew <br></div><div dir="ltr">than I do to pass judgement on this.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">David<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On 05/01/2022 18:34, David Gil wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Dear Jesús, all,<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> In the Papuan dialect of Malay, /sampe/ 'arrive' / 'until' may occur <br></div><div dir="ltr">> in the following two constructions, which, although not the same as <br></div><div dir="ltr">> the West African ones, seem to bear a family resemblance:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> (1) A sampe<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> (2) V sampeeeH X<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> In (1), A is a scalar adjective, and /sampe/ has the effect of an <br></div><div dir="ltr">> intensifier, 'very A'.This construction occurs only utterance finally, <br></div><div dir="ltr">> and the intonational peak is on the A, with /sampe/ associated with a <br></div><div dir="ltr">> low "afterethought-like" contour.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> In (2) /sampe/ fuses with an ideophone consisting of a super-long [e] <br></div><div dir="ltr">> associated with High (or High falling) pitch.The meaning of (2) is 'V <br></div><div dir="ltr">> for a very long time until X'.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Similar constructions occur also in some of the local languages of <br></div><div dir="ltr">> North West New Guinea; Laura Arnold has looked at some of these.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> These two constructions differ from the West African ones in that they <br></div><div dir="ltr">> lack an explicit expression meaning 'getting tired':in (1) there is <br></div><div dir="ltr">> nothing, while in (2) there is an overt expression X that is <br></div><div dir="ltr">> interpreted literally.However, they share with the West African <br></div><div dir="ltr">> constructions a somewhat unexpected association between a form meaning <br></div><div dir="ltr">> 'until' and a notion of excessivity, or, in the case of (2) 'long time'.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I'd be interested in hearing of similar constructions in other languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> David<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> On 05/01/2022 17:56, Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Dear all,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> I hope this email finds you well.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> I send you this message because in my sample there are a couple of <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> African languages (e.g. Tommo So and Bangime) that have a narrative <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> construction in which the /until/-clause appears with a verb meaning <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> ‘to get tired’ (e.g. /I worked I worked until I get tired/). Note <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> that this clause does not necessarily denote literal weariness or <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> physical fatigue. Instead, this construction is used in contexts <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> where speakers express that they carried out an activity for a very <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> long time (e.g. /I worked I worked for a very long time/). In this <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> type of construction, the first clause in linear order denotes a <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> prolonged activity and is followed by a clause meaning ‘until I got <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> tired’ emphasizing the extreme prolongation of the first situation.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> I was wondering if you know any study that has explored this type of <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> construction or if you know any other African languages that have <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> this type of construction.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Thank you very much in advance.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> -- <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Jesús Olguín Martínez<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> /University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)/<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <a href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez " target="_blank">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez </a><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <<a href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez" target="_blank">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> -- <br></div><div dir="ltr">> David Gil<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Email:<a ymailto="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-- <br></div><div dir="ltr">David Gil<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Senior Scientist (Associate)<br></div><div dir="ltr">Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br></div><div dir="ltr">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br></div><div dir="ltr">Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Email:<a ymailto="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br></div><div dir="ltr">Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20220105/f0a4ff77/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20220105/f0a4ff77/attachment-0001.html</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 2<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 20:48:29 +0000<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Joey Lovestrand <<a ymailto="mailto:joeylovestrand@gmail.com" href="mailto:joeylovestrand@gmail.com">joeylovestrand@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: Denis Creissels <<a ymailto="mailto:denis.creissels@univ-lyon2.fr" href="mailto:denis.creissels@univ-lyon2.fr">denis.creissels@univ-lyon2.fr</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <<a ymailto="mailto:olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu" href="mailto:olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu">olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu</a>>,<br></div><div dir="ltr"> "<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] 'until' clauses in Africa<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <CALftu-qdiq9ozO1YL-TjKTQ=Dns6M_0yx=<a ymailto="mailto:KKpHjAjo4EKKF6kw@mail.gmail.com" href="mailto:KKpHjAjo4EKKF6kw@mail.gmail.com">KKpHjAjo4EKKF6kw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I've also heard French speakers in Chad use the word *jusqu'à* on it's own<br></div><div dir="ltr">(no complement of any kind) to mean "for a very long time". This usage is<br></div><div dir="ltr">apparently attested in other countries as well:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://www.dictionnairedesfrancophones.org/form/jusqu'%C3%A0/sense/inv%3Aentry%2F2847%2Fen%2F0%2Fls%2F1" target="_blank">https://www.dictionnairedesfrancophones.org/form/jusqu'%C3%A0/sense/inv%3Aentry%2F2847%2Fen%2F0%2Fls%2F1</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Joey<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 4:11 PM Denis Creissels <<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:denis.creissels@univ-lyon2.fr" href="mailto:denis.creissels@univ-lyon2.fr">denis.creissels@univ-lyon2.fr</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Dear Jesus Francisco,<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> 'Until getting tired' as a way of expressing 'for a very long time' is<br></div><div dir="ltr">> pervasive in West African languages, and is also found in local varieties<br></div><div dir="ltr">> of European languages (for example 'jusqu'à fatigué' in Ivorian French). I<br></div><div dir="ltr">> know of no general analysis of this construction, but the reason is<br></div><div dir="ltr">> probably simply that that, syntactically, it behaves like any until-clause.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Note that the West African verbs commonly glossed 'tire' commonly have a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> wider meaning, including 'bother', 'cause problems'.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Denis<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">> *De :* Lingtyp <<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> de la part de<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <<a ymailto="mailto:olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu" href="mailto:olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu">olguinmartinez@ucsb.edu</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> *Envoyé :* mercredi 5 janvier 2022 16:56:31<br></div><div dir="ltr">> *À :* <a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> *Objet :* [Lingtyp] 'until' clauses in Africa<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Dear all,<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I hope this email finds you well.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I send you this message because in my sample there are a couple of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> African languages (e.g. Tommo So and Bangime) that have a narrative<br></div><div dir="ltr">> construction in which the *until*-clause appears with a verb meaning ‘to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> get tired’ (e.g. *I worked I worked until I get tired*). Note that this<br></div><div dir="ltr">> clause does not necessarily denote literal weariness or physical fatigue.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Instead, this construction is used in contexts where speakers express that<br></div><div dir="ltr">> they carried out an activity for a very long time (e.g. *I worked I<br></div><div dir="ltr">> worked for a very long time*). In this type of construction, the first<br></div><div dir="ltr">> clause in linear order denotes a prolonged activity and is followed by a<br></div><div dir="ltr">> clause meaning ‘until I got tired’ emphasizing the extreme prolongation of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> the first situation.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I was wondering if you know any study that has explored this type of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> construction or if you know any other African languages that have this type<br></div><div dir="ltr">> of construction.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Thank you very much in advance.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> --<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Jesús Olguín Martínez<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics<br></div><div dir="ltr">> *University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)*<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez" target="_blank">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20220105/3e849213/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20220105/3e849213/attachment-0001.html</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 3<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 10:01:53 +0000<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: ARNOLD Laura <<a ymailto="mailto:Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk" href="mailto:Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk">Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: "<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] 'until' clauses in Africa<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:DB6PR05MB454976774CD3B8C5E9206E32B84B9@DB6PR05MB4549.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com" href="mailto:DB6PR05MB454976774CD3B8C5E9206E32B84B9@DB6PR05MB4549.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com">DB6PR05MB454976774CD3B8C5E9206E32B84B9@DB6PR05MB4549.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"> <br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Dear Jesús, everyone,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Following up on the Papuan Malay sampe 'arrive/until' construction David mentions: yes, there are similar constructions in a few languages elsewhere in north Maluku and northwest New Guinea. In these languages, a form meaning ‘until’ is used clause-finally with both adjectives and verbs (where there’s a distinction) to communicate intensification, emphasis, or an event of unusually long duration. The prosody of 'until' varies by language: in some cases it takes the low 'afterthought' intonation David describes for Papuan Malay example (1), in some it's realised with non-final intonation (despite being in final position), and in some the final vowel is lengthened.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Some examples:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Ambel (Austronesian > South Halmahera-West New Guinea; Arnold 2018)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">(1) Conjunction: ki=u-toróy tu i aya ula-lál<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">EXPR=3DU-live.with COM 3SG.AN until 3DU-big<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">'The two of them lived with her until they were grown up.'<br></div><div dir="ltr">(2) Intensifier: na-kalép aya<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">3SG.AN-lick until<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">'He licked for a long time.'<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Ternate (North Halmahera; Hayami-Allen 2001)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">(3) Conjunction: ngofa~ngofa gee oho sado i=torifu<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">REDUP~child that eat until 3PL=full<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">'The children ate until they got full.'<br></div><div dir="ltr">(4) Intensifier: rehe cum sado<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">flesh hurt until<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">'[My] muscle hurts very much.'<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">This looks very similar to the French construction with jusqu'à in Africa that Joey mentioned. I'm happy to provide further references, if they're of use. I'd also—like David—be interested to hear of similar constructions elsewhere.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Laura<br></div><div dir="ltr">________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Lingtyp <<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of David Gil <<a ymailto="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 17:05<br></div><div dir="ltr">To: <a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] 'until' clauses in Africa<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.<br></div><div dir="ltr">You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the email is genuine and the content is safe.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Dear Jesús, all,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">In a literary style of Modern Hebrew, one way of marking excessivity is with the expression la-ʕayefa 'to-tiredness'; examples cited in the website of the Academy of the Hebrew Language make it clear that the tiredness is not necessarily meant literally.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Website: <a href="https://hebrew-academy.org.il/2015/11/01/%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%94/" target="_blank">https://hebrew-academy.org.il/2015/11/01/%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%94/</a>[in Hebrew]<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The same website attributes this usage to Biblical Hebrew, specifically Isaiah 46:1 "כָּרַע בֵּל קֹרֵס נְבו, הָיוּ עֲצַבֵּיהֶם לַחַיָּה וְלַבְּהֵמָה; נְשֻׂאֹתֵיכֶם עֲמוּסוֹת מַשָּׂא לַעֲיֵפָה", which, in the King James translation, reads " Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth; their idols were upon the beasts and upon the cattle. Your carriages were heavy laden; they are a burden to the weary beast".<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">However, in this particular Biblical Hebrew verse, "weary" does seem to permit a literal interpretation, suggesting that the semantic extension evident in Modern Hebrew took place subsequent to the Biblical period. But I leave it to those who know more about the history of Hebrew than I do to pass judgement on this.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">David<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On 05/01/2022 18:34, David Gil wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Dear Jesús, all,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">In the Papuan dialect of Malay, sampe 'arrive' / 'until' may occur in the following two constructions, which, although not the same as the West African ones, seem to bear a family resemblance:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">(1) A sampe<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">(2) V sampeeeH X<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">In (1), A is a scalar adjective, and sampe has the effect of an intensifier, 'very A'. This construction occurs only utterance finally, and the intonational peak is on the A, with sampe associated with a low "afterethought-like" contour.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">In (2) sampe fuses with an ideophone consisting of a super-long [e] associated with High (or High falling) pitch. The meaning of (2) is 'V for a very long time until X'.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Similar constructions occur also in some of the local languages of North West New Guinea; Laura Arnold has looked at some of these.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">These two constructions differ from the West African ones in that they lack an explicit expression meaning 'getting tired': in (1) there is nothing, while in (2) there is an overt expression X that is interpreted literally. However, they share with the West African constructions a somewhat unexpected association between a form meaning 'until' and a notion of excessivity, or, in the case of (2) 'long time'.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I'd be interested in hearing of similar constructions in other languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">David<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On 05/01/2022 17:56, Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">Dear all,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I hope this email finds you well.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I send you this message because in my sample there are a couple of African languages (e.g. Tommo So and Bangime) that have a narrative construction in which the until-clause appears with a verb meaning ‘to get tired’ (e.g. I worked I worked until I get tired). Note that this clause does not necessarily denote literal weariness or physical fatigue. Instead, this construction is used in contexts where speakers express that they carried out an activity for a very long time (e.g. I worked I worked for a very long time). In this type of construction, the first clause in linear order denotes a prolonged activity and is followed by a clause meaning ‘until I got tired’ emphasizing the extreme prolongation of the first situation.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I was wondering if you know any study that has explored this type of construction or if you know any other African languages that have this type of construction.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Thank you very much in advance.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">--<br></div><div dir="ltr">Jesús Olguín Martínez<br></div><div dir="ltr">Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics<br></div><div dir="ltr">University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez" target="_blank">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez</a><<a href="http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez" target="_blank">http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">--<br></div><div dir="ltr">David Gil<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Senior Scientist (Associate)<br></div><div dir="ltr">Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br></div><div dir="ltr">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br></div><div dir="ltr">Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Email: <a ymailto="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br></div><div dir="ltr">Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">--<br></div><div dir="ltr">David Gil<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Senior Scientist (Associate)<br></div><div dir="ltr">Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br></div><div dir="ltr">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br></div><div dir="ltr">Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Email: <a ymailto="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br></div><div dir="ltr">Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. Is e buidheann carthannais a th’ ann an Oilthigh Dhùn Èideann, clàraichte an Alba, àireamh clàraidh SC005336.<br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20220106/e332e73d/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20220106/e332e73d/attachment-0001.html</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 4<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:38:35 +0100<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Johann-Mattis List <<a ymailto="mailto:mattis.list@lingpy.org" href="mailto:mattis.list@lingpy.org">mattis.list@lingpy.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: <a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: [Lingtyp] [FYI] New Positions in the CALC³ Project<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:0c7669ed-052d-b339-cf9e-1a016f12a220@lingpy.org" href="mailto:0c7669ed-052d-b339-cf9e-1a016f12a220@lingpy.org">0c7669ed-052d-b339-cf9e-1a016f12a220@lingpy.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Hi all,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">thanks to the generous funding by the MPG, the CALC project will be <br></div><div dir="ltr">continued until 2024. Under the title "Beyond CALC: Computer-Assisted <br></div><div dir="ltr">Approaches to Human Prehistory, Linguistic Typology, and Human <br></div><div dir="ltr">Cognition. (CALC³)", we will continue and expand our work on <br></div><div dir="ltr">computer-assisted language comparison.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">This means also, that two new positions have just been announced:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">1. post-doc position for two years: <br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/career/positions-available/job/526/Abteilung%20Sprach-%20und%20Kulturevolution/en/?cHash=03f4acc5869838ed71a5164dad0ec849" target="_blank">https://www.eva.mpg.de/career/positions-available/job/526/Abteilung%20Sprach-%20und%20Kulturevolution/en/?cHash=03f4acc5869838ed71a5164dad0ec849</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">2. PhD position for three years: <br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/career/positions-available/job/525/Abteilung%20Sprach-%20und%20Kulturevolution/en/?cHash=9309eeba5eeff9a839fa84b3fdabdc4c" target="_blank">https://www.eva.mpg.de/career/positions-available/job/525/Abteilung%20Sprach-%20und%20Kulturevolution/en/?cHash=9309eeba5eeff9a839fa84b3fdabdc4c</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Please feel free to share this information with your colleagues or via <br></div><div dir="ltr">channels in which interested people might find this information. <br></div><div dir="ltr">Deadline for application is February 16, starting date is Apri 1st or a <br></div><div dir="ltr">bit later.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Mattis<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Digest Footer<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 88, Issue 3<br></div><div dir="ltr">**************************************<br></div></div>
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