<div dir="ltr">There exists a large literature on non-negative NEG marks of the type exemplified by Françoise Rose :
<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px"><i>avant qu’elle n’arrive, ….</i> It is the so-called 'expletive (or vacuous) negation' we find in many languages: </span>
<i style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:14pt"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:12pt">Je suis parti avant qu’il
<b>ne</b> soit arrivé ,</span></i><span lang="FR" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> i.e at the moment of my departure he was <b>not ye</b>t arrived. But the meaning of </span>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:14pt"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:12pt"><i>Je suis parti avant </i>qu’il<i> soit arrivé </i>would be the same . Along with the important book by Dobrushina (see mail of Tanaku Tsunoda) you may consider <i> </i></span></span><i>A Twofold Classification of Expletive Negation</i> by Matteo Greco, Conference paper, Aug. 2019 at <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339285297">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339285297</a>. See also P. Ramat , <i>La comparazione negativa</i>,<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:14pt;text-align:justify"> </span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:14pt;text-align:justify">«Archivio Glottologico Italiano» </span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt"> 87/2002:
223-229.</span><div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt">Regards,<br></span> <br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat</span><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div>Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br><div>'Academia Europaea'</div><div>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</div></div><div><div>Università di Pavia (retired)</div><div>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</div></div><div><br></div></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">##39 0382 27027</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">347 044 98 44</div></div></div></div><br></div></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br> <table style="border-top:1px solid #d3d4de">
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<a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"></a></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno mer 12 gen 2022 alle ore 10:14 Hartmut Haberland <<a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="DA">
<div class="gmail-m_5853051944577445843WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I do not know if this phenomenon in Danish is related.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">“Ikke så snart Amsterdam-traktaten trådte i kraft, begyndte Europa-Kommissionen …” literally ”Not as soon [as] the Amsterdam treaty came into force
…”<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">One could translate this into English with “no sooner” and one might ask if a difference between “no sooner” (with negation) and “as soon as” (without
negation) always is observed by all speakers, as subtle it may be.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Hartmut Haberland</span></b><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"><br>
Professor emeritus</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"><img width="100" height="42" style="width: 1.0416in; height: 0.4375in;" id="gmail-m_5853051944577445843_x0000_i1025" src="https://intra.ruc.dk/fileadmin/assets/adm/campusit/ruc.png" alt="RUC"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<br>
</span><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Roskilde University</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"><br>
Department of Communication and Arts</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>På vegne af </b>Françoise Rose<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 12. januar 2022 09:53<br>
<b>Til:</b> mohammad rasekh <<a href="mailto:mrasekhmahand@yahoo.com" target="_blank">mrasekhmahand@yahoo.com</a>>; LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Fariba Sabouri <<a href="mailto:faribasabouri@gmail.com" target="_blank">faribasabouri@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Negation marks adverbial clauses<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Mohammad,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">this is a very common phenomenon in (rather formal) French:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">avant qu’elle n’arrive, ….
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">before she arrives (lit. before she does not arrive)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Unfortunately, I don’t have any reading recommendation on the topic!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Françoise ROSE (fʁɑ̃swɑz ʁoz)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Directrice de Recherches 2<sup>ème</sup> classe, CNRS<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Laboratoire Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">16 avenue Berthelot<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">69007 Lyon<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">FRANCE<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,78,121)"><a href="http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE" target="_blank">www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE</a><i><u></u><u></u></i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">De :</span></b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>De la part de</b> mohammad rasekh<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mardi 11 janvier 2022 16:18<br>
<b>À :</b> LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc :</b> Fariba Sabouri <<a href="mailto:faribasabouri@gmail.com" target="_blank">faribasabouri@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Negation marks adverbial clauses<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif">I hope you have started a happy new year.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif">In the corpus of one of my students in Hamedani Persian (a variety spoken in Hamedan, west of Iran), we have found some adverbial clauses in which the verb is marked by negative prefix,
but it does not mean negative. These adverbial clauses mark Time (meaning 'as soon as') and Reason, or both at the same time. Some examples:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="gmail-m_5853051944577445843ydp24f6f745msolistparagraph" style="line-height:200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;line-height:200%;font-family:Garamond,serif;color:black">1.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:7pt;line-height:200%;color:black">
</span><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;line-height:200%;font-family:Garamond,serif;color:black;background:white">i ke kur
<b>na</b></span></i><b><i><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif">-šod</span></i></b><i><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif">, man diye ruz-e xoš na-didam</span></i><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_5853051944577445843ydp24f6f745msolistparagraph" style="line-height:200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;line-height:200%"> he that blind NEG-become, I anymore day-EZ happy NEG-see-1SG
</span><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:200%"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;line-height:200%"> As soon as he got blind, I had no good times.</span><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="gmail-m_5853051944577445843ydpa53b1b4fmsolistparagraph" style="line-height:200%"><span lang="FR">2.</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:7pt;line-height:200%"> </span><i><span lang="EN-US">das ke
<b>ne-mi-keš-i</b> ru harči, xāk-e</span></i><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_5853051944577445843ydpa53b1b4fmsolistparagraph" style="line-height:200%"><span lang="EN-US"> hand that NEG-IND-touch-2SG over everything, dirty-BE.3SG</span><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_5853051944577445843ydpa53b1b4fmsolistparagraph" style="line-height:200%"><span lang="EN-US"> As you touch everything, it is dirty.</span><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:200%"><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif">I wonder if there is any other language in which the adverbial clause is negative in form but not in meaning. I searched to find some evidence or some sources
which mention this, but I was not successful. I appreciate your comments.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:200%"><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:200%"><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif">Mohammad <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(76,118,162)">Mohammad Rasekh-Mahand </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(76,118,162)">Linguistics Department,</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(76,118,162)">Bu-Ali Sina University, </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(76,118,162)">Hamedan, Iran.</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(76,118,162)">Postal Code: 6517838695 </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Garamond,serif"><a href="https://basu.academia.edu/MohammadRasekhmahand" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(76,118,162)">https://basu.academia.edu/MohammadRasekhmahand<br>
</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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