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<p>Dear Mohammad,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>there is a similar construction (as in, Paolo wrote, many other languages) in German:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>"Bevor ich das Geld nicht gespart habe, kann ich mir kein Auto kaufen."</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Here, "nicht" is logically superfluous. My explanation for its occurrence was always that this is a hybrid temporal/conditional clause where "bevor" shows semantic features of the conditional conjunction "wenn".<br>
</p>
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</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Ludwig Paul</div>
<div>Hamburg<br>
</div>
<br>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>Von:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> im Auftrag von Paolo Ramat <paoram@unipv.it><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch, 12. Januar 2022 12:30<br>
<b>An:</b> Hartmut Haberland<br>
<b>Cc:</b> LINGTYP LINGTYP; Fariba Sabouri<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Negation marks adverbial clauses</font>
<div> </div>
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<div>
<div dir="ltr">There exists a large literature on non-negative NEG marks of the type exemplified by Françoise Rose :
<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125); font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:14.6667px">
<i>avant qu’elle n’arrive, ….</i> It is the so-called 'expletive (or vacuous) negation' we find in many languages: </span>
<i style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; font-size:14pt"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="FR">Je suis parti avant qu’il
<b>ne</b> soit arrivé ,</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" lang="FR"> i.e at the moment of my departure he was
<b>not ye</b>t arrived. But the meaning of </span> <span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; font-size:14pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="FR"><i>Je suis parti avant </i>qu’il<i> soit arrivé
</i>would be the same . Along with the important book by Dobrushina (see mail of Tanaku Tsunoda) you may consider <i> </i></span></span><i>A Twofold Classification of Expletive Negation</i> by Matteo Greco, Conference paper, Aug. 2019 at
<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339285297" id="LPlnk23493" previewremoved="true">
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339285297</a>. See also P. Ramat , <i>La comparazione negativa</i>,<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; font-size:14pt; text-align:justify"> </span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; font-size:14pt; text-align:justify">«Archivio
Glottologico Italiano» </span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; text-align:justify; font-size:12pt"> 87/2002: 223-229.</span>
<div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; text-align:justify; font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; text-align:justify; font-size:12pt">Regards,<br>
</span> <br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat</span>
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<div>Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br>
<div>'Academia Europaea'</div>
<div>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>Università di Pavia (retired)</div>
<div>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</div>
</div>
<div><br>
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<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">##39 0382 27027</div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">347 044 98 44</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno mer 12 gen 2022 alle ore 10:14 Hartmut Haberland <<a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>> ha scritto:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">I do not know if this phenomenon in Danish is related.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">“Ikke så snart Amsterdam-traktaten trådte i kraft, begyndte Europa-Kommissionen …” literally ”Not as soon [as] the Amsterdam treaty came into
force …”<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">One could translate this into English with “no sooner” and one might ask if a difference between “no sooner” (with negation) and “as soon as”
(without negation) always is observed by all speakers, as subtle it may be.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:black">Hartmut Haberland</span></b><span style="font-size:8.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:black"><br>
Professor emeritus</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:black"><img id="gmail-m_5853051944577445843_x0000_i1025" alt="RUC" style="width:1.0416in; height:0.4375in" width="100" height="42" src="https://intra.ruc.dk/fileadmin/assets/adm/campusit/ruc.png"></span><span style="font-size:8.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
<br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">Roskilde University</span></b><span style="font-size:8.5pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
Department of Communication and Arts</span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>På vegne af </b>Françoise Rose<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 12. januar 2022 09:53<br>
<b>Til:</b> mohammad rasekh <<a href="mailto:mrasekhmahand@yahoo.com" target="_blank">mrasekhmahand@yahoo.com</a>>; LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Fariba Sabouri <<a href="mailto:faribasabouri@gmail.com" target="_blank">faribasabouri@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Negation marks adverbial clauses<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Dear Mohammad,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">this is a very common phenomenon in (rather formal) French:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="FR">avant qu’elle n’arrive, ….
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">before she arrives (lit. before she does not arrive)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Unfortunately, I don’t have any reading recommendation on the topic!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="FR">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="FR">Françoise ROSE (fʁɑ̃swɑz ʁoz)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="FR">Directrice de Recherches 2<sup>ème</sup> classe, CNRS<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="FR">Laboratoire Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">16 avenue Berthelot<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">69007 Lyon<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">FRANCE<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,78,121)" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE" target="_blank">www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE</a><i><u></u><u></u></i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="FR">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="FR"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>De la part de</b> mohammad rasekh<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mardi 11 janvier 2022 16:18<br>
<b>À :</b> LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc :</b> Fariba Sabouri <<a href="mailto:faribasabouri@gmail.com" target="_blank">faribasabouri@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Negation marks adverbial clauses<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR">I hope you have started a happy new year.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR">In the corpus of one of my students in Hamedani Persian (a variety spoken in Hamedan, west of Iran), we have found some adverbial clauses in which the verb is marked by negative prefix,
but it does not mean negative. These adverbial clauses mark Time (meaning 'as soon as') and Reason, or both at the same time. Some examples:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="gmail-m_5853051944577445843ydp24f6f745msolistparagraph" style="line-height:200%">
<span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:200%; font-family:Garamond,serif; color:black" lang="EN-GB">1.</span><span style="font-size:7pt; line-height:200%; color:black" lang="EN-GB">
</span><i><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:200%; font-family:Garamond,serif; color:black; background:white" lang="EN-GB">i ke kur
<b>na</b></span></i><b><i><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR">-šod</span></i></b><i><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR">, man diye ruz-e xoš na-didam</span></i><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_5853051944577445843ydp24f6f745msolistparagraph" style="line-height:200%">
<span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:200%" lang="EN-GB"> he that blind NEG-become, I anymore day-EZ happy NEG-see-1SG
</span><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:200%"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:200%" lang="EN-GB"> As soon as he got blind, I had no good times.</span><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="gmail-m_5853051944577445843ydpa53b1b4fmsolistparagraph" style="line-height:200%">
<span lang="FR">2.</span><span style="font-size:7pt; line-height:200%" lang="FR"> </span><i><span lang="EN-US">das ke
<b>ne-mi-keš-i</b> ru harči, xāk-e</span></i><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_5853051944577445843ydpa53b1b4fmsolistparagraph" style="line-height:200%">
<span lang="EN-US"> hand that NEG-IND-touch-2SG over everything, dirty-BE.3SG</span><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_5853051944577445843ydpa53b1b4fmsolistparagraph" style="line-height:200%">
<span lang="EN-US"> As you touch everything, it is dirty.</span><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:200%"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR">I wonder if there is any other language in which the adverbial clause is negative in form but not in meaning. I searched to find some evidence or some sources which
mention this, but I was not successful. I appreciate your comments.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:200%"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:200%"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR">Mohammad <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Verdana,sans-serif; color:rgb(76,118,162)" lang="FR">Mohammad Rasekh-Mahand </span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Verdana,sans-serif; color:rgb(76,118,162)" lang="FR">Linguistics Department,</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Verdana,sans-serif; color:rgb(76,118,162)" lang="FR">Bu-Ali Sina University, </span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Verdana,sans-serif; color:rgb(76,118,162)" lang="FR">Hamedan, Iran.</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Verdana,sans-serif; color:rgb(76,118,162)" lang="FR">Postal Code: 6517838695 </span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Garamond,serif" lang="FR"><a href="https://basu.academia.edu/MohammadRasekhmahand" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Verdana,sans-serif; color:rgb(76,118,162)">https://basu.academia.edu/MohammadRasekhmahand<br>
</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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