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<p>Matthew, Daniel, Russell and all,</p>
<p>I'm with Daniel on this one; in my 2017 paper I discuss precisely
this issue, namely, how do we define the meanings of the relevant
forms, and whether one of them has a meaning that can
appropriately be characterized as "give".</p>
<p>Abstracting away from word order, and assuming minimal
morphology, what we have is a situation of the abstract form</p>
<p>A X P Y R</p>
<p>where A = Agent, P = Patient, R = Recipient, a translation into
our contact language along the lines of A gave P to R, and an
analytical question: What are the meanings of X and Y (and should
one of them be assigned the meaning "give")? Typically, both X and
Y are poly- or macro-functional, and either of the two can occur
without the other, resulting in constructions whose translational
equivalents into our contact language do not involve "give". X and
Y don't wear their glosses on their sleeves, as it were; the
answer to our analytical question will depend on an in-depth
language-specific analysis of the various functions of each of the
two elements, X and Y.</p>
<p>In Roon (SHWNG, Austronesian), there are two "give"
constructions. For the one illustrated in (3) of my 2017 paper, I
argue that the basic meaning of X (<i>ve</i>) is "do", while that
of Y (<i>fa</i>) is an oblique marker. For the one illustrated in
(10), X = Y (both have the form <i>ve</i>) and here too I argue
that both mean "do". Under an alternative more splitting
analysis, the second element might be characterized as a
"different" <i>ve</i> associated with an allative function;
however, the first <i>ve</i> would still be vague between a
variety of different functions, and, as I argue there, is most
appropriately analyzed as meaning "do".</p>
<p>The second part of the 2017 paper looks at a number of other
languages of the region; while the patterns of
poly-/macro-functionality differ from one language to another, in
many of the cases, neither of the two elements, X and Y, would
seem to warrant the assignation of a meaning "give".</p>
<p>David</p>
<p>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:6.0pt;text-align:justify;text-justify:
inter-ideograph;page-break-after:avoid;tab-stops:27.0pt 85.5pt
166.5pt 211.5pt 247.5pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">(3)<span style="mso-tab-count:1">
</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Musai<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>vye<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>pipi<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>fa<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>Riksoni</i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
page-break-after:avoid;tab-stops:27.0pt 85.5pt 166.5pt 211.5pt
247.5pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:
1"> </span>Musa:<span style="font-variant:small-caps">pers<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span><3sg.anim></span><b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal">ve</b><span style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>money<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span><span
style="font-variant:small-caps">obl<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>R</span>ikson<span
style="font-variant:
small-caps">:pers</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;text-justify:
inter-ideograph;tab-stops:27.0pt 85.5pt 166.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"
lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>'Musa
gave money to Rikson.'</span></p>
<p>
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<p>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:6.0pt;text-align:justify;text-justify:
inter-ideograph;page-break-after:avoid;tab-stops:27.0pt 85.5pt
171.0pt 3.0in 243.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">(10)<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span><i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Musai<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>vye<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>pipi<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>ve<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>Riksoni</i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;
page-break-after:avoid;tab-stops:27.0pt 85.5pt 171.0pt 3.0in
243.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:
1"> </span>Musa:<span style="font-variant:small-caps">pers<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span><3sg.anim></span>ve<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>money<span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span><b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">ve</b><span
style="font-variant:small-caps"><span style="mso-tab-count:1">
</span>R</span>ikson<span style="font-variant:
small-caps">:pers</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;text-justify:
inter-ideograph;tab-stops:27.0pt 85.5pt 166.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"
lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>'Musa
gave money to Rikson.'</span></p>
<p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 27/01/2022 18:16, Russell Barlow
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:207686872.325570.1643300187534@webmail.eva.mpg.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div class="default-style"> Daniel, </div>
<div class="default-style"> <br>
</div>
<div class="default-style"> I'm not sure I follow. Presumably we'd
be relying on the translations of the *arguments*, not of the
verbs, when figuring out the semantic roles of each verbal
object. So, in examples of the sort that you, Eline, and I
(maybe others) have provided, we see something like: </div>
<div class="default-style"> <br>
</div>
<div class="default-style"> "boy take apple, give girl" </div>
<div class="default-style"> <br>
</div>
<div class="default-style"> ... to mean something like "the boy
gives the girl an apple". I share your unease about considering
the second verb in such cases to be "give" in the English sense.
But I don't think there's any issue in figuring out which NP is
semantically the theme and which NP is semantically the
recipient. We could ignore the glosses of the verbs, and the
semantic roles of the participants would still be clear: </div>
<div class="default-style"> <br>
</div>
<div class="default-style"> verb1 apple, verb2 girl </div>
<div class="default-style"> <br>
</div>
<div class="default-style"> Provided we know that "apple" and
"girl" are both the objects of the verbs they follow, then we
could say that the object of verb1 is a Theme, and the object of
verb2 is a Recipient. I think what Matthew and I are both
interested in finding is something like: </div>
<div class="default-style"> <br>
</div>
<div class="default-style"> boy verb1 apple, girl verb2 apple </div>
<div class="default-style"> <br>
</div>
<div class="default-style"> ... something like "the boy proffered
the apple; the girl took the apple". </div>
<div class="default-style"> <br>
</div>
<div class="default-style"> Best, </div>
<div class="default-style"> Russell </div>
<div class="default-style"> <br>
</div>
<div class="io-ox-signature">
<p>Russell Barlow<br>
Postdoctoral Researcher<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:russell_barlow@eva.mpg.de">russell_barlow@eva.mpg.de</a></p>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> On 01/27/2022 4:41 PM Daniel Ross
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com"><djross3@gmail.com></a> wrote: </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div> Matthew, </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Relying on translation equivalents in this case is not
clear. If the verb "give" exclusively appears in SVCs (as is
claimed for some languages), then it's only half of the
lexical meaning of English <em>give</em>. We could
translate it as something else, e.g. some active equivalent
of 'receive' (several verbs like 'supply (the army)' or
'load (the truck)' can be used in this way, although they're
flexible including ditransitive usage like 'give' at least
with prepositional arguments). </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Russell, I have the same uncertainty about your
question: how do we know what a "Theme" argument is, without
relying on translation? In many languages with SVCs of this
type, there is no case marking (in fact, SVCs are said by
some to function as case markers), so I don't know what
other evidence there would be aside from the translation of
the verb itself, which only in the construction as a whole
means 'give'. </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> I assume that the etymology of the verbs in these
constructions is not 'give': that is, it's not the case that
an original, full lexical verb 'give' taking three arguments
was reduced to taking two arguments and expanded into this
construction, but that some other verb grammaticalized into
that function. There's been a lot written about these kinds
of usage, but I'm not sure about the best sources to
recommend for that specific etymological question. I do
think it would be relevant to the original question, though.
<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Daniel <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr"> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at
7:03 AM Matthew Dryer <<a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>>
wrote: <br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class="gmail-m_-6529256804020571052WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniel,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This does not seem to be what my
colleague is looking for since the second verb still
arguably means ‘give’.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Matthew</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border-color: #b5c4df currentcolor
currentcolor; border-style: solid none none;
border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in
0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:
12pt; color: black;">From: </span></strong><span
style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Daniel Ross
<<a target="_blank"
href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">djross3@gmail.com</a>><br>
<strong>Date: </strong>Wednesday, January 26,
2022 at 11:27 PM<br>
<strong>To: </strong>Matthew Dryer <<a
target="_blank" href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu"
rel="noopener" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>><br>
<strong>Cc: </strong>"<a target="_blank"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
rel="noopener" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"
<<a target="_blank"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
rel="noopener" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<strong>Subject: </strong>Re: [Lingtyp] languages
lacking a verb for 'give'</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Matthew,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is a common pattern for
languages with serial verb constructions, along
the lines of "take book give him", etc. There has
been a lot written about the lack of argument
structure in these languages (some claiming that
three arguments are not possible in some
languages), and that SVCs can supplement that
argument structure (and possibly a small inventory
of verbs, according to some sources). I'm not as
confident in some of the more extreme claims about
this, but it is clear that this pattern is
widespread among many of these languages (I know
I've seen explicit claims for West Africa and
creoles, and probably elsewhere). At the same
time, it is not clear that these languages,
strictly speaking, lack a lexical verb "give",
since one of the verbs in this construction can be
translated as such, although it is used with
another verb (often 'take') to supplement it for
the full argument structure. Other patterns are
found too, and probably various other lexical
verbs are used in a function like 'give', so it
becomes a question of lexical translation. (This
more generally is related to patterns of verbs in
SVCs developing into prepositions.)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm sorry I don't immediately
have any specific languages/references in mind,
but let me know if you'd like me to try to find
some. I know that Sebba 1987 discusses this in
some detail, and here's one example:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">ɔde sekaŋ no mãã me<br>
he-take knife the give-PAST me<br>
'S/he gave me the knife' [originally from
Christaller 1875: 118]</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sebba, Mark. 1987. The syntax
of serial verbs: an investigation into
serialisation in Sranan and other languages.
Amsterdam: John Benjamins. <a target="_blank"
href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1075%2Fcll.2&data=04%7C01%7Cdryer%40buffalo.edu%7Cc44862af146441dbdbf808d9e14d210e%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637788544416223276%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=SHIWY7LV%2B4KJ5mQ9%2FaNUhpSLtDvNn2s3udyusfGdNE0%3D&reserved=0"
rel="noopener" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://doi.org/10.1075/cll.2</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(Tangential note: SVCs like
this are generally considered <em> monoclausal</em>,
by a variety of metrics, so I wouldn't call this
"two analytic clauses", although the effect is the
same. My dissertation thoroughly reviews the issue
of monoclausality: <a target="_blank"
href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.5281%2Fzenodo.5546425&data=04%7C01%7Cdryer%40buffalo.edu%7Cc44862af146441dbdbf808d9e14d210e%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637788544416223276%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=SO5DRkCQvGojEx0eGLfyTDzhiZDKioxLvXqGU8bmwoE%3D&reserved=0"
rel="noopener" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.5546425</a> --
but I don't discuss this specific question about
'give'.)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Finally, one extra comment,
which is probably not what your colleague is
after, is that there are some languages where the
lexical verb 'give' is (at least in some cases) a
zero root or null morpheme, i.e. indicated by lack
of phonological content plus other inflectional
morphology. This is discussed for some PNG
languages here:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a target="_blank"
href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F40037774%2FComrie_B_and_R_Zamponi_2019_Verb_root_ellipsis_In_Morphological_perspectives_papers_in_honour_of_Greville_G_Corbett_ed_by_M_Baerman_O_Bond_and_A_Hippisley_Edinburgh_Edinburgh_University_Press_pp_233_280&data=04%7C01%7Cdryer%40buffalo.edu%7Cc44862af146441dbdbf808d9e14d210e%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637788544416223276%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ONKTzIsx0gdsULoAdNVs81gRBFDA78i60cX2OLeHQJc%3D&reserved=0"
rel="noopener" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.academia.edu/40037774/Comrie_B_and_R_Zamponi_2019_Verb_root_ellipsis_In_Morphological_perspectives_papers_in_honour_of_Greville_G_Corbett_ed_by_M_Baerman_O_Bond_and_A_Hippisley_Edinburgh_Edinburgh_University_Press_pp_233_280</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniel</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 7:43 PM
Matthew Dryer <<a target="_blank"
href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
name="m_-6529256804020571052_m_9006019862080693940__GoBack"
class="mce-item-anchor"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a>I am sending this
query on behalf of a colleague.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">He wants to know <span
style="color: black;">whether anyone knows
of a language that lacks a "give" type verb
and would express something like "I gave him
the book" instead as something like "I
presented the book (to him) and he took it".
That is, is there a language that can only
express a give-type concept with two more
analytic clauses?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Matthew Dryer</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
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