<div dir="ltr">Dear Matthew,<div><br></div><div>Ambrocio Gutiérrez (Teotitlán del Valle) and Ausencia López Cruz (San Pablo Güilá), Central Valley Zapotec speaker linguists, report the following constructions in their presentation in 2015 at CILLA:</div><div><br></div><div>Ambrocio says this type of sentence is 'optional' (that is, in Teotitlán a standard ditransitive construction is also available) but that in Güilá this type of construction is obligatory.</div><div><br></div><div><img src="cid:ii_kyyp6ses0" alt="image.png" width="445" height="126"><br></div><div><br></div><div>Gutiérrez, Ambrocio y Auencia López Cruz. 2015. El comportamiento de los ojetos de verbos bitransitivos en el Zapoteco de Teotitlán del Valle y en el Zapoteco de San Pablo Güilá. Paper presented at CILLA VII, Austin, TX<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Hiroto </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El jue, 27 ene 2022 a la(s) 12:42, Matthew Dryer (<a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>) escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">While I didn’t find Daniel’s argument convincing, I do find the detailed cases described by Alex and David to be convincing.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Matthew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span style="color:black">Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 12:22 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] languages lacking a verb for 'give'<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p>Matthew, Daniel, Russell and all,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>I'm with Daniel on this one; in my 2017 paper I discuss precisely this issue, namely, how do we define the meanings of the relevant forms, and whether one of them has a meaning that can appropriately be characterized as "give".<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Abstracting away from word order, and assuming minimal morphology, what we have is a situation of the abstract form<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>A X P Y R<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>where A = Agent, P = Patient, R = Recipient, a translation into our contact language along the lines of A gave P to R, and an analytical question: What are the meanings of X and Y (and should one of them be assigned the meaning "give")? Typically, both
X and Y are poly- or macro-functional, and either of the two can occur without the other, resulting in constructions whose translational equivalents into our contact language do not involve "give". X and Y don't wear their glosses on their sleeves, as it were;
the answer to our analytical question will depend on an in-depth language-specific analysis of the various functions of each of the two elements, X and Y.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>In Roon (SHWNG, Austronesian), there are two "give" constructions. For the one illustrated in (3) of my 2017 paper, I argue that the basic meaning of X (<i>ve</i>) is "do", while that of Y (<i>fa</i>) is an oblique marker. For the one illustrated in (10),
X = Y (both have the form <i>ve</i>) and here too I argue that both mean "do". Under an alternative more splitting analysis, the second element might be characterized as a "different"
<i>ve</i> associated with an allative function; however, the first <i>ve</i> would still be vague between a variety of different functions, and, as I argue there, is most appropriately analyzed as meaning "do".<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>The second part of the 2017 paper looks at a number of other languages of the region; while the patterns of poly-/macro-functionality differ from one language to another, in many of the cases, neither of the two elements, X and Y, would seem to warrant the
assignation of a meaning "give".<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>David<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:6pt;text-align:justify;break-after:avoid">
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">(3) <i>Musai vye pipi fa Riksoni</i></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;break-after:avoid">
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif"> Musa:<span style="font-variant:small-caps">pers <3sg.anim></span><b>ve</b> money
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">obl R</span>ikson<span style="font-variant:small-caps">:pers</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify">
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 'Musa gave money to Rikson.'</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:6pt;text-align:justify;break-after:avoid">
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">(10) <i>Musai vye pipi ve Riksoni</i></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;break-after:avoid"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif"> Musa:<span style="font-variant:small-caps">pers <3sg.anim></span>ve money
<b>ve</b><span style="font-variant:small-caps"> R</span>ikson<span style="font-variant:small-caps">:pers</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 'Musa gave money to Rikson.'</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">On 27/01/2022 18:16, Russell Barlow wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Daniel, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I'm not sure I follow. Presumably we'd be relying on the translations of the *arguments*, not of the verbs, when figuring out the semantic roles of each verbal object. So, in examples of the sort that you,
Eline, and I (maybe others) have provided, we see something like: <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">"boy take apple, give girl" <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">... to mean something like "the boy gives the girl an apple". I share your unease about considering the second verb in such cases to be "give" in the English sense. But I don't think there's any issue in figuring
out which NP is semantically the theme and which NP is semantically the recipient. We could ignore the glosses of the verbs, and the semantic roles of the participants would still be clear:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">verb1 apple, verb2 girl <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Provided we know that "apple" and "girl" are both the objects of the verbs they follow, then we could say that the object of verb1 is a Theme, and the object of verb2 is a Recipient. I think what Matthew and
I are both interested in finding is something like: <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">boy verb1 apple, girl verb2 apple
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">... something like "the boy proffered the apple; the girl took the apple".
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Russell <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p>Russell Barlow<br>
Postdoctoral Researcher<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
<a href="mailto:russell_barlow@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">russell_barlow@eva.mpg.de</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">On 01/27/2022 4:41 PM Daniel Ross
<a href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com" target="_blank"><djross3@gmail.com></a> wrote: <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Matthew, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Relying on translation equivalents in this case is not clear. If the verb "give" exclusively appears in SVCs (as is claimed for some languages), then it's only half of the lexical meaning of English
<em><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">give</span></em>. We could translate it as something else, e.g. some active equivalent of 'receive' (several verbs like 'supply (the army)' or 'load (the truck)' can be used in this way, although they're flexible
including ditransitive usage like 'give' at least with prepositional arguments).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Russell, I have the same uncertainty about your question: how do we know what a "Theme" argument is, without relying on translation? In many languages with SVCs of this type, there is no case marking (in fact,
SVCs are said by some to function as case markers), so I don't know what other evidence there would be aside from the translation of the verb itself, which only in the construction as a whole means 'give'.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I assume that the etymology of the verbs in these constructions is not 'give': that is, it's not the case that an original, full lexical verb 'give' taking three arguments was reduced to taking two arguments
and expanded into this construction, but that some other verb grammaticalized into that function. There's been a lot written about these kinds of usage, but I'm not sure about the best sources to recommend for that specific etymological question. I do think
it would be relevant to the original question, though. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Daniel <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 7:03 AM Matthew Dryer <<a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>> wrote:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Daniel,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This does not seem to be what my colleague is looking for since the second verb still arguably means ‘give’.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Matthew<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none currentcolor;border-bottom:none currentcolor;border-left:none currentcolor;border-top:1pt solid currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></strong><span style="color:black">Daniel Ross <<a href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com" target="_blank">djross3@gmail.com</a>><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Date: </span></strong>Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 11:27 PM<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To: </span></strong>Matthew Dryer <<a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cc: </span></strong>"<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject: </span></strong>Re: [Lingtyp] languages lacking a verb for 'give'</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Matthew,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This is a common pattern for languages with serial verb constructions, along the lines of "take book give him", etc. There has been a lot written about the lack of argument structure in these languages (some claiming that three arguments
are not possible in some languages), and that SVCs can supplement that argument structure (and possibly a small inventory of verbs, according to some sources). I'm not as confident in some of the more extreme claims about this, but it is clear that this pattern
is widespread among many of these languages (I know I've seen explicit claims for West Africa and creoles, and probably elsewhere). At the same time, it is not clear that these languages, strictly speaking, lack a lexical verb "give", since one of the verbs
in this construction can be translated as such, although it is used with another verb (often 'take') to supplement it for the full argument structure. Other patterns are found too, and probably various other lexical verbs are used in a function like 'give',
so it becomes a question of lexical translation. (This more generally is related to patterns of verbs in SVCs developing into prepositions.)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'm sorry I don't immediately have any specific languages/references in mind, but let me know if you'd like me to try to find some. I know that Sebba 1987 discusses this in some detail, and here's one example:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">ɔde sekaŋ no mãã me<br>
he-take knife the give-PAST me<br>
'S/he gave me the knife' [originally from Christaller 1875: 118]<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sebba, Mark. 1987. The syntax of serial verbs: an investigation into serialisation in Sranan and other languages. Amsterdam: John Benjamins.
<a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1075%2Fcll.2&data=04%7C01%7Cuchihara%40g-mail.buffalo.edu%7C1224f325567c40bb7ad108d9e1c4bf04%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637789057420971558%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=mBRT6xsLL0sWi95lgTor2N7r90aR2vzV0OTFmik7cjQ%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
https://doi.org/10.1075/cll.2</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">(Tangential note: SVCs like this are generally considered <em>
<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">monoclausal</span></em>, by a variety of metrics, so I wouldn't call this "two analytic clauses", although the effect is the same. My dissertation thoroughly reviews the issue of monoclausality:
<a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.5281%2Fzenodo.5546425&data=04%7C01%7Cuchihara%40g-mail.buffalo.edu%7C1224f325567c40bb7ad108d9e1c4bf04%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637789057420971558%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=hNyIagaooguNiGB4Ameadb5yo6gLXHVBT6m%2FbemF1q4%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.5546425</a> -- but I don't discuss this specific question about 'give'.)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Finally, one extra comment, which is probably not what your colleague is after, is that there are some languages where the lexical verb 'give' is (at least in some cases) a zero root or null morpheme, i.e. indicated by lack of phonological
content plus other inflectional morphology. This is discussed for some PNG languages here:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F40037774%2FComrie_B_and_R_Zamponi_2019_Verb_root_ellipsis_In_Morphological_perspectives_papers_in_honour_of_Greville_G_Corbett_ed_by_M_Baerman_O_Bond_and_A_Hippisley_Edinburgh_Edinburgh_University_Press_pp_233_280&data=04%7C01%7Cuchihara%40g-mail.buffalo.edu%7C1224f325567c40bb7ad108d9e1c4bf04%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C637789057420971558%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=7MgQTxOpQ79HpkhwVEmw8fmcRoXAB6CphgNT5uLYD6Y%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://www.academia.edu/40037774/Comrie_B_and_R_Zamponi_2019_Verb_root_ellipsis_In_Morphological_perspectives_papers_in_honour_of_Greville_G_Corbett_ed_by_M_Baerman_O_Bond_and_A_Hippisley_Edinburgh_Edinburgh_University_Press_pp_233_280</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Daniel<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 7:43 PM Matthew Dryer <<a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_-7470782414916814550_m_-6529256804020571052_m_900601986208069"></a>I am sending this query on behalf of a colleague.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">He wants to know <span style="color:black">whether anyone knows of a language that lacks a "give" type verb and would express something like "I gave him the book" instead as something like "I presented the book (to him) and he took it".
That is, is there a language that can only express a give-type concept with two more analytic clauses?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Matthew Dryer<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
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<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>David Gil<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Senior Scientist (Associate)<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dr. Hiroto Uchihara</div><div><a href="https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0" target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0</a><br></div><div>Investigador, Titular A (<span style="font-size:12.8px">Associate Research Professor)</span></div><div>Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas</div><div>Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas</div><div>Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México</div><div>Circuito Mario de la Cueva</div><div>Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad de México.</div><div>Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489</div><div>Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext. 49223<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>