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In my earlier email of yesterday (see below), I stated that for the Hungarian word 'boy', the alienable-inalienable distinction was expressed in all six person-number forms except for the first person plural, where the two forms coincided. However, the examples
that I gave contradicted this statement:<br>
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<br>
fi<span style="font-size:14pt">ú-nk 'our boyfriend'<br>
</span>fiu-nk 'our son'<br>
<br>
Hartmut called my attention to the discrepancy between the two forms (long versus short u). In response, I said I had indeed made a mistake in giving the form for 'our son': it should have the long <span style="font-size:18.6667px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!important">ú:</span> <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!important">fi</span><span style="margin:0px; font-size:14pt; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">ú-nk,
which would have meant there was no distinction between the alienable and inalienable forms.<br>
</span><br>
In response, my Hungarian colleague Ferenc Havas has told me that by saying 'our son' is </div>
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<span style="margin:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!important">fi</span><span style="margin:0px; font-size:14pt; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">ú-nk (with the long u), I ended up changing the correct form to the wrong one:<br>
'our son' has a short u, in contrast with 'our boyfriend' <span style="font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">fi</span><span style="margin:0px;font-size:14pt;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255)">ú-nk, which has the long
u.</span><br>
<br>
I agree. This means that alienable-inalienable distinction IS maintained in the first-person plural just as it is in the other five person/number cases. Here is the correct paradigm:<br>
<br>
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<span style="margin:0px; font-size:14pt; line-height:19.7867px; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:black">fiú ‘boy’ </span><span style="margin:0px; font-size:11pt; line-height:15.5467px; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<span style="margin:0px; font-size:14pt; line-height:19.7867px; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:black">‘my/your/his… boyfriend’:<br>
fiú-m<br>
fiú-d<br>
fiú-ja<br>
fiú-nk<br>
fiú-tok<br>
fiú-juk </span><span style="margin:0px; font-size:11pt; line-height:15.5467px; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
<br>
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<span style="margin:0px; font-size:14pt; line-height:19.7867px; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:black">‘my/your/his… son’:<br>
fia-m<br>
fia-d<br>
fia<br>
fi-unk<br>
fi-atok<br>
fi-uk </span></p>
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<span style="margin:0px; font-size:14pt; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
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Ferenc also points out that the distinction between the long and short u is often disregarded in Hungarian colloquial usage. However, in the case of <span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!important">fiú-nk
'our boyfriend' and fi-unk 'our son', it is clearly maintained.<br>
</span><br>
<span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important">I would like to thank both Harmut and Ferenc for close reading and for letting me know the problems that they have discovered.<br>
</span><br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Edith M.<br>
</span><br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Edith A Moravcsik <edith@uwm.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, January 30, 2022 5:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> hartmut@ruc.dk <hartmut@ruc.dk><br>
<b>Cc:</b> LINGTYP (lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org) <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Fw: [Lingtyp] Phonological differences of alienable vs. inalienable possession</font>
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Sorry, I left off the ' in the 'our son' example. Both forms are <br>
<br>
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<span style="font-size:14.0pt"><i>fiú-nk</i> 'our boyfriend' and 'our son'.</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:14.0pt"><br>
</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:14.0pt">Thanks for noticing this error!<br>
<br>
Edith</span></p>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Hartmut Haberland <hartmut@ruc.dk><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, January 30, 2022 8:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Edith A Moravcsik <edith@uwm.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> SV: [Lingtyp] Phonological differences of alienable vs. inalienable possession</font>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Edith, is there no difference between fiúnk and fiunk in your list? Hartmut Haberland</span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org>
<b>På vegne af </b>Edith A Moravcsik<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 30. januar 2022 15:24<br>
<b>Til:</b> Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad@gmail.com>; Marie-Luise Popp <marie_luise.popp@uni-leipzig.de><br>
<b>Cc:</b> LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG<br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Phonological differences of alienable vs. inalienable possession</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:14.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">In my message of yesterday about alienables and inalienables in Hungarian, I said the distinction only showed up in the third person singular. There is, however,
one exception to this: the word <i>fiú </i>‘boy’, where the difference is present in all persons and numbers (except for the plural first person, where the two forms are the same).<br>
<br>
fiú ‘boy’ </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:14.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">‘my/your/his… boyfriend’:<br>
fiú-m<br>
fiú-d<br>
fiú-ja<br>
fiú-nk<br>
fiú-tok<br>
fiú-juk </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:14.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:14.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">‘my/your/his… son’:<br>
fia-m<br>
fia-d<br>
fia<br>
fi-unk<br>
fi-atok<br>
fi-uk </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:14.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:14.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Best,<br>
<br>
Edith Moravcsik </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; line-height:106%; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> Edith A Moravcsik <<a href="mailto:edith@uwm.edu">edith@uwm.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 29, 2022 2:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guillaume Jacques <<a href="mailto:rgyalrongskad@gmail.com">rgyalrongskad@gmail.com</a>>; Marie-Luise Popp <<a href="mailto:marie_luise.popp@uni-leipzig.de">marie_luise.popp@uni-leipzig.de</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Phonological differences of alienable vs. inalienable possession</span>
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<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Hello Luise,<br>
<br>
Hungarian has a few sporadic examples of the alienable-inalienable distinction on nouns.<br>
The difference shows up only in the third-person possessive forms and it is minimal: the marker is almost the same. Examples:<br>
<br>
ablak 'window'<br>
ablak-ja 'window of a seller'<br>
<span style="background:white">ablak-a 'window of a house'</span></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">anyag 'material'<br>
<span style="background:white">anyag-ja 'material sold by a store'</span><br>
anyag-a 'material that something is made of'</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Sometimes the inalienable form shows a difference in the stem:<br>
<br>
fi</span><span style="font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">ú</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> 'boy'<br>
fi</span><span style="font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">ú</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">-ja 'a girl's boyfriend'<br>
<span style="background:white">fi-a 'somebody's son'</span><br>
<br>
bir</span><span style="font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">ó</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> 'judge'<br>
<span style="background:white">bir</span></span><span style="font-family:"Courier New"; color:black; background:white">ó-</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black; background:white">ja 'the judge of a town'</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"><br>
bir</span><span style="font-family:"Courier New"; color:black">á-</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">ja 'the judge of an issue'</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"><br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Edith Moravcsik</span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of Guillaume Jacques <<a href="mailto:rgyalrongskad@gmail.com">rgyalrongskad@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 28, 2022 5:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marie-Luise Popp <<a href="mailto:marie_luise.popp@uni-leipzig.de">marie_luise.popp@uni-leipzig.de</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Phonological differences of alienable vs. inalienable possession</span>
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Dear Marie-Luise, </p>
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In Gyalrong languages, inalienably possessed nouns have almost the same set possessive prefixes as alienably possessed ones, but present a certain number of morphological differences, see Zhang (2020, p.27++, <a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftel.archives-ouvertes.fr%2Ftel-03176380&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7Cb4af603af9ed400d442008d9e3ff86f4%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637791508926171792%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=GFPiBk7pWxNROVcu107J%2FhjYwFQkuyNcVprkFrTQQW4%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-03176380" shash="xto3LcBVspzDcaRBpI0wce3omQoioW+M7ZRnUrd115nEvOJgIO4qZmC80saCCvqoJpDB8RrzdG7f96AefWU2Gpv0MFc4vByw3eyZ7/O2PeDKsTync/yhCn64DlXR6BWgFrTPjN5dIrY/TUnKmk5D85P+uJzOWYGuBqUe7427kBM=">Le
rgyalrong situ de Brag-bar et sa contribution à la typologie de l'expression des relations spatiales : L'orientation et le mouvement associé - TEL - Thèses en ligne (archives-ouvertes.fr)</a>) on Situ and Jacques (2021: 114++ <a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flangsci-press.org%2Fcatalog%2Fbook%2F295&data=04%7C01%7Cedith%40uwm.edu%7Cb4af603af9ed400d442008d9e3ff86f4%7C0bca7ac3fcb64efd89eb6de97603cf21%7C0%7C0%7C637791508926171792%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=H0E9CtWZtIZZRx2amh5wSN4XZJK%2Bv%2F83QrfzqEPz8Ng%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295" shash="A+AG4kvMrdbJq2P38NKz5BsfxI8QhgT3aU1iJIamIISP7BAbEAUM6YDVZQWUWQLTcSJvvSqt1GTQRjjnvZssQ6jwthB3ejk/5Df3Vo5MteW7tatAXcZilmhwnpl6aW2s9KiwxFja5Q2zlWN+76l80eRxaWpdVklJ9tQZhMbStrU=">A
grammar of Japhug | Language Science Press (langsci-press.org)</a>) on Japhug.</p>
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Guillaume</p>
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Le ven. 28 janv. 2022 à 12:10, Marie-Luise Popp <<a href="mailto:marie_luise.popp@uni-leipzig.de">marie_luise.popp@uni-leipzig.de</a>> a écrit :</p>
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Dear all,<br>
<br>
I'm looking for languages, in which alienable and inalienable possession <br>
is marked by the same set (or at least - phonologically similar) <br>
exponents, yet do these exponents undergo different phonological <br>
processes in alienable vs. inalienable possession.<br>
<br>
In Ojibwe, for example, vowel hiatus is resolved via consonant <br>
epenthesis in alienable possession, but via deletion in inalienable <br>
possession.<br>
<br>
If anyone knows of more languages of this type, I would be grateful for <br>
references and comments.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Luise (Leipzig University)<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
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Guillaume Jacques</p>
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Directeur de recherches<br>
CNRS (CRLAO) - EPHE- INALCO </p>
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