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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span dir="RTL"
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;
mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-font-family:
Calibri;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi"
lang="AR-SA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US">Modern colloquial Hebrew has a colourful way of
referring to a year in the
distant past, but explaining it requires substantial background
information regarding
the Hebrew calendar, orthography and the pronunciation of
acronyms.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US">1. As we all know the universe was created 5782
years ago.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>However,
dates in the Hebrew calendar are
often referred to omitting the 5, so it's now 782.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US">2. Hebrew dates are typically referred to using
letters instead of numbers,
in accordance with the system known as <i>gematria</i>
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria</a>).<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>So for example, this year
is written as </span><span dir="RTL"
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-ascii-font-family:
Calibri;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;mso-ansi-language:
EN-US;mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="HE">תשפ״ב</span><span
dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:HE"
lang="EN-US"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>,
which gets transliterated as TŠP"B, where T=400, Š=300,
P=80 and B=2, adding up to 782.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US">3. An aside: Hebrew acronyms such as the above
are conventionally written
with a " between the penultimate and last letters — does anybody
know
where this convention comes from?<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>(I
haven't encountered it in any other language.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US">4. Now for some phonology.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Hebrew
acronyms, <i>gematria</i>-based and otherwise, are typically
pronounced in
accordance with templatic morphology; some of the rules are
described in
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.outibatel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Bat-El-1994-acronyms.pdf">http://www.outibatel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Bat-El-1994-acronyms.pdf</a>.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>For example, TŠP"B is
pronounced as
[tašpab], or, to cite another important date in Israeli history,
1929, or 5229
in the Hebrew calendar, is written TRP"T and pronounced
[tarpat].<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>We're almost
there ...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US">5. To express the meaning 'a very long time
ago', there is the jocular form
</span><span dir="RTL"
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-ascii-font-family:
Calibri;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;mso-ansi-language:
EN-US;mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="HE">תרפפ״ו</span><span
dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:HE"
lang="EN-US"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>, or
TRPP"W, pronounced [tarapapu], and usually occurring
in the collocation [šnat tarapapu] 'the year tarapapu'.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>In terms of the rules of <i>gematria</i>
it
is ill-formed, since it contains repeated occurrences of P.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>And with respect to the
phonology of
acronyms, it is also ill-formed, since acronym pronunciations
are usually disyllabic,
occasionally trisyllabic, but I don't think there are any
attested cases of
quadrisyllabic pronunciations.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>It
just
sounds really funny.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US">Thus, although its semantics is specific to the
expression of time, Hebrew [šnat
tarapapu] would seem to be similar to other approximative
numeral expressions
with emotive function that have been discussed in this thread.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
HE" lang="EN-US">David</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:
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</span></p>
<p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 22/02/2022 16:27, Amanda Kann wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2E34C81A-4923-47A4-BACB-599BD44C1977@su.se">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear
typologists,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US">(Apologies
to those who have already seen this query through
LinguistList!)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;background:white"
lang="EN-US">I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in
any language) to the approximative numeral phrases in the
examples below – conventionalized numeral expressions which
typically express larger, approximate numeric quantities and
encode some kind of emotive function.</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
<span style="background:white">I'm interested in the
composition and value of these numerals, as well as their
emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other
expressions in the numeral domain in your language(s) that
carry a similar illocutionary force, I would love to hear
about them as well!</span><br>
<br>
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;background:white">Swedish
[swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><a
href="http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#2176F5;background:white;text-decoration:none">http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp</span></a><span
style="color:black;background:white">)</span><span
style="color:black"><br>
<span style="background:white">Det finns nämligen
femtioelva sorters myror.</span><br>
</span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;background:white"
lang="EN-US">'There are actually many types of ants' (lit.
'There are actually fifty-eleven types of ants')</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
<br>
<span style="background:white">French [fra]: (Lavric 2010, </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><a
href="https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#2176F5;background:white;text-decoration:none"
lang="EN-US">https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;background:white"
lang="EN-US">)</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
<span style="background:white">Il n’y a pas trente-six
façons de voir la chose.</span><br>
<span style="background:white">'There aren't very many ways
of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There aren't thirty-six ways
of seeing the thing')</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background:white">Danish [dan]: (from
OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#2176F5;background:white;text-decoration:none"
lang="EN-US">http://opus.nlpl.eu</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;background:white"
lang="EN-US">)</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
<span style="background:white">Han fortalte mig 117 gange,
at han ikke gjorde hende noget.</span><br>
<span style="background:white">'He told me a thousand times
that he didn't do anything to her' (lit. 'He told me 117
times that he didn't do anything to her')</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background:white">English [eng]: (from
OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#2176F5;background:white;text-decoration:none"
lang="EN-US">http://opus.nlpl.eu</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black;background:white"
lang="EN-US">)</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
<span style="background:white">For the umpteenth time, we
are not getting a dog.</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US">Thank
you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US">Best
regards,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-US">Amanda
Kann<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#002448">____________________________________</span></b><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#002448">Amanda
Kann</span></b><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1C314A">Institutionen
för </span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">lingvistik</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1C314A"> | <i>Department
of </i></span><i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Linguistics</span></i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1C314A"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1C314A"
lang="EN-US">Stockholms universitet | <i>Stockholm
University</i></span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1C314A"
lang="EN-US"><br>
106 91 Stockholm </span><span style="color:black"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#002448"
lang="EN-US"><br>
</span><u><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#954F72"
lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">amanda.kann@su.se</a></span></u><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#002448"
lang="EN-US"><br>
</span><span style="color:black"><a
href="http://www.ling.su.se/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#954F72"
lang="EN-US">www.ling.su.se</span></a></span><span
style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><a
href="https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter"
target="_blank"
title="https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter
Ctrl+Click or tap to follow the link"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:#5E5E5E"
lang="EN-US">Per</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:#5E5E5E">sonuppgiftsbehandling
vid Stockholms universitet</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#002448"><br>
<b>____________________________________</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
</pre>
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