<div dir="ltr">Hi David,<div><br></div><div>The issue, as I see it, is what we mean by 'promote'.</div><div>We can agree that</div><div><br></div><div>passive promotes object to subject (and demotes initial subject to non-core)</div><div>applicative promotes (oblique?) to object (might demote initial object to non-core)</div><div><br></div><div>(and the philippine voice is something like " … promotes (anything) to subject (and doesn't demote initial subject to non-core)</div><div><br></div><div>However, every text study of either passives or applicatives, or non-core philippine-type voice choice, shows that there is a degree of pragmatic prominence associated with the use of these valency-rearranging operations. We might re-phrase the passive and applicative characterisations as</div><div><br></div><div><div>passive promotes pragmatically-prominent object to subject (and demotes initial less-prominent subject to non-core)</div><div>applicative promotes pragmatically-prominent (oblique?) to object (might demote initial (less-prominent?) object to non-core)</div><div><br></div><div>We typically describe applicatives as involving just the grammatical function change. Thus, we have examples like this cited for Indonesian (from Shiohara 2012):</div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail-page" title="Page 2" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail-layoutArea"><div class="gmail-column"><ol style="list-style-type:none"><li><p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">(2)a </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;font-style:italic;color:rgb(35,31,32)">Pelayan mengambil segelas air</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">waiter<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">AV</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">.take a.glass.of water</span></p><p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">‘The waiter took a glass of water.’</span></p></li><li><p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">(2)b </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;font-style:italic;color:rgb(35,31,32)">Pelayan mengambil-kan tamu segelas air</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">.<br>waiter<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">AV</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">.take-</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">APPL<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">guest a.glass.of water<br>‘The waiter brought the guest a glass of water.’ (Sneddon 1996: 80)</span></p></li></ol></div></div></div></div><div>As Susanna Cummings showed, however, (2)b examples are not really attested in naturalistic discourse; rather, we have examples like the following:</div><div><br></div><div>(2)c Tamu di-ambil-kan segelas air (oleh pelayan).</div><div> guest NONACTIVE-take-APPL a.glass.of water by waiter</div><div> 'The waiter brought the guest a glass of water.'</div><br class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div>(See also Donohue 2001 for similar data from Tukang Besi.)</div><div><br></div><div>So, this shows that (in some languages) the increased prominence of the argument that was sufficient to merit coding with an applicative construction is also sufficient to merit a non-active voice choice, with all that entails. A Philippine-type voice system by stealth, as it were.</div><div><br></div><div>The Tzutujil example has an applicative suffix; and it also has a verb with 3SG absolutive agreement (Ø), not 1SG (the in- in the first example I posted). It also has the requirement that there must be overt coding of the increased prominent of the instrument; like Indonesian, it does that by utilising existing high-prominence coding strategies; unlike Indonesian, it does that not by using a voice change, but by using a pragmatically-marked word order choice.</div><div><br></div><div>-Mark</div><div><br></div><div><p class="entry" align="left" style="margin:0cm 0cm 1pt 42.5pt;line-height:12pt;font-size:medium;font-family:Times;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Donohue, Mark. 2001. Coding choices in argument structure: Austronesian applicatives in texts.<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Studies in Language</i>25 (2): 217-254.</p></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 13:53, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Mark,</p>
<p>Thanks for the Tzutujil example, which is indeed quite similar to
the New Guinea constructions I have been looking at.</p>
<p>However, I remain unconvinced with regard to its characterization
as an applicative, though to a certain degree this is a mere
terminological question. Prototypically, applicatives promote to
direct objects while passive voices (such as instrumental) promote
to subjects — so, for any given construction, the question is
whether the relevant argument, here the instrumental one, is more
direct-object-like or more subject-like.</p>
<p>This begins to remind me of the seemingly endless ongoing debates
over whether Philippine voice constructions are "really" passives
or perhaps something else, the question generally boiling down to
whether the relevant argument is more like a subject or more like
a topic. Personally, I don't find these debates very productive,
and I'm not sure how useful an analogous debate between
applicative and instrumental-voice labels would prove to be in
this case. <br>
</p>
<p>What's important is to have a clear description of the facts, and
how the constructions in question differ from prototypical
applicatives and from prototypical instrumental voice
constructions — with the proviso that there are perhaps not
sufficiently many of the latter to construct a clear notion of
what is prototypical.</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 22/02/2022 04:26, Mark Donohue
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I would agree with Matthew that these are best
described as applicatives, but ones in which the 'pragmatic
advancement' function monitored by an applicative is, in
addition to the grammatical function coding changes, also
required to be monitored by the use of a pragmatically marked
word order.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Very similar facts are found in Tzutujil, in which the
applicative, which indicates an instrumental role (despite
having a morpheme cognate with the benefactive applicative in
other Mayan languages) also requires the appearance of the
instrument object in a preverbal role, which is a
pragmatically marked position in a verb-initial language.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Data from Dayley (1985).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin:2pt 0cm 0.0001pt 55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue"><span lang="EN-US">Xinruuch’eyi jaa7 tza7n chee7</span></p>
<p style="margin:2pt 0cm 0.0001pt 55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue"><span lang="EN-US">he:hit:me he with stick</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 1cm 2pt 59.55pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times"><span lang="EN-US">‘He hit me with a stick.’</span></p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin:2pt 0cm 0.0001pt 55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue"><span lang="EN-US">Chee7 x(r)uuch’eyb’ei jaa7 inin</span></p>
<p style="margin:2pt 0cm 0.0001pt 55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue"><span lang="EN-US">stick he:hit-with:it he 1SG</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 1cm 2pt 59.55pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times"><span lang="EN-US">‘He hit me with a stick.’</span></p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Mark</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 13:15,
David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Matthew,</p>
<p>The reason I don't call it an applicative is that (in
most cases) the instrumental argument must occur before
the verb in a topic-like position.</p>
<p>This can be illustrated with the Roon instrumental prefix
<i>u-</i> in the following examples:</p>
<p> </p>
<table style="border-collapse:collapse;border:none" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">(1)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:0.75in;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="72" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">*
Eros-i</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:0.75in;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="72" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">pers</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">3sg:anim-instr-</span><span style="font-size:10pt">chop</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">tree-3<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">sg:anim-def</span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt"></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"><span>
</span>'Eros chopped the tree'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<table style="border-collapse:collapse;border:none" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">(2)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:62.3pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="83" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">I-seref</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">kaman</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:22.65pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">fa</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:47.85pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="64" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-i</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:62.3pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="83" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">1<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">sg-</span>look.for</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">axe</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:22.65pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">for</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:47.85pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="64" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">pers</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">3sg:anim-instr-</span><span style="font-size:10pt">chop</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">tree-3<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">sg:anim-def</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"><span>
</span>'I'm looking for an axe for Eros to chop the tree
with'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<table style="border-collapse:collapse;border:none" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">(3)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:67.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="90" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">I-seref</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">kaman</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:47.55pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="63" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-i</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:135pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="180" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya-ri-ya</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:67.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="90" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">1<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">sg-</span>look.for</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">axe</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:47.55pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="63" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">pers</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">3sg:anim-instr-</span><span style="font-size:10pt">chop</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:135pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="180" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">tree-3<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">sg:anim-def-3sg:inan-def</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"><span>
</span>'I'm looking for the axe that Eros chopped the
tree with'</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Sentence (1) is ungrammatical, and cannot be salvaged by
adding a postverbal NP or PP referring to the axe; in this
respect it differs from typical applicative
constructions. In contrast, sentences (2) and (3) are
fine, because the instrumental prefix <i>u-</i> is
licensed by the preceding NP <i>kaman</i> referring to
the axe. True, this is not exactly the same as how things
work in Philippine languages, but it is more like
Philippine instrumental voice than anything else I can
think of (including applicatives). In particular, in (3),
the instrumental prefix is required in order to license
relativization (in contrast, relativization of other
oblique arguments is zero-marked). To use Paul
Schachter's terminology, in both (2) and (3), "subjecthood
properties" seem to be split between the agent (which, as
you correctly point out, controls agreement) and the
instrument.<br>
<br>
Very similar patterns obtain in the other Austronesian and
non-Austronesian languages that I mentioned, which — given
the apparent rarity of this pattern elsewhere — is
strongly suggestive of language contact.</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 22/02/2022 03:41, Matthew Dryer wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">David,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Why
would you not say that the instrumental construction
in Meyah, Sougb, and Hatam is an applicative, since
the A rather than the instrument controls subject
agreement?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Matthew</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="color:black">Lingtyp <a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
on behalf of David Gil <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"><gil@shh.mpg.de></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, February 21, 2022 at 7:40 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">"lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"</a>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Lingtyp] query: instrument voice</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the Austronesian languages of
Taiwan, Philippines and Madagascar, there is a verbal
affix that is said to mark "instrument voice"; loosely
speaking, it marks the topic or subject of the clause
as bearing the semantic role of instrument.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Is anybody familiar with similar
instrument-voice constructions from other parts of the
world?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The reason I ask is that a similar
construction is present also in some languages of the
Bird's Head and Cenderawasih Bay regions of New
Guinea, eg. Biak, Roon, Wamesa and Wooi
(Austronesian), and Hatam, Sougb, Meyah and Moskona
(non-Austronesian). What's curious about this
construction is that, unlike the well-known
Austronesian cases, it is the only
morphologically-marked voice in each of the languages
in question; there is no "ordinary" morphological
passive construction. My feeling is that this
construction is quite uncommon cross-linguistically,
but I would like to get a feel for the extent to which
this is indeed true.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">David</p>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>David Gil</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Senior Scientist (Associate)</pre>
<pre>Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution</pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology</pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a></pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713</pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
<pre> </pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
</pre>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
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