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<p>Hi Bruno,</p>
<p>These are very nice examples, but there are still some missing
pieces to the puzzle. Let me try and represent your examples
schematically. In the following table, I characterize your three
examples in accordance with three grammatical features,
presence/absence of instrumental prefix, position of instrument,
and whether or not it is flagged.<br>
</p>
<p>
</p>
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<tbody>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes">
<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">Vbal INSTR prefix</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="120" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">INSTR position</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">INSTR flagging</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:1">
<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">(1) (2)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">NONE</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="120" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">post-V</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">en</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:2;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">
<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">(3)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">ka-</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="120" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">pre-V</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">NONE</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p>
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<p>I hope the above is a correct representation of the facts that
you presented. But if it is, then the obvious question is whether
these are the only possible constellations of these three
grammatical features. Logically, there are eight possibilities,
as per the following table:</p>
<p>
</p>
<table class="MsoTableGrid"
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<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
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5.4pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">Vbal INSTR prefix</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="120" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">INSTR position</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-left:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">INSTR flagging</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:1">
<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">(1) (2)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:
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windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
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mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">NONE</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="120" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">post-V</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">en</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:2">
<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:
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windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">NONE</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="120" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">post-V</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
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mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">NONE</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:3">
<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
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0in 5.4pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">NONE</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
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5.4pt" width="120" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">pre-V</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border-top:none;border-left:
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windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
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5.4pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">en</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:4">
<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:
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windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
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5.4pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">NONE</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">pre-V</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border-top:none;border-left:
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windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
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5.4pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">NONE</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:5">
<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
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0in 5.4pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:
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mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">ka-</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="120" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">post-V</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">en</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:6">
<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
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0in 5.4pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">ka-</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="120" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">post-V</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">NONE</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:7;height:3.15pt">
<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt;height:3.15pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt;height:3.15pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">ka-</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt;height:3.15pt" width="120" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">pre-V</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt;height:3.15pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">en</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:8;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes">
<td style="width:40.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt
0in 5.4pt" width="54" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">(3)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:103.5pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="138" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">ka-</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:1.25in;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="120" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">pre-V</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:81.0pt;border-top:none;border-left:
none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid
windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext
.5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in
5.4pt" width="108" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-bidi-language:HE" lang="EN-US">NONE</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p>
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<p>My question then is whether any of the six intermediate
combinations in the above table are grammatical. To the extent
that they are not, then the parallel — a rather exciting one —
with the constructions in Roon and other Bird's Head languages
would be strengthened accordingly.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 22/02/2022 17:51, Bruno Olsson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAFaKcaWCSRnydrNDWagqDwNhZryzTipQBk6V5k=+T2fcgyERRQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hi David,<br>
<br>
Here is, briefly, why what you wrote about Roon reminds me of
the split subject properties of the Marind instrument cxn.<br>
There are two relatively straightforward features that
distinguish S/A arguments from objects etc in Marind. First,
indexing with the so-called A-prefix series:<br>
<br>
(1) nok ka-no-gha-sak-e bes en<br>
1 NTRL.ORTN-1.A-2sg.U-beat-IPFV stick with<br>
'*I* am beating you with a stick.'<br>
<br>
Second, the use of the so-called Neutral Orientation prefix when
the immediately preverbal NP is the subject. Compare (1) with
(2), which has an immediately preverbal object, which requires
the Object Orientation ma- on the verb:<br>
<br>
(2) nok ogh ma-no-gha-sak-e bes en<br>
1 2sg OBJ.ORTN-1.A-2sg.U-beat-IPFV stick with<br>
'I am beating *you* with a stick.'<br>
<br>
The bare instrument NP introduced by the
WITH-prefix/applicative/voice fails the first subject test (it's
not indexed on the verb), but passes the second (it requires the
Neutral prefix, just like a subject):<br>
<br>
(3) nok ogh bes ka-no-ka-gha-sak-e<br>
1 2sg stick NTRL.ORTN-1.A-WITH-2sg.U-beat-IPFV<br>
'I am beating you with *a stick*.'<br>
<br>
Like in Roon, the agent in (3) controls subject indexing, but
the behavioural test provided by the Orientation prefixes treats
the instrument as the subject, which to me seems similar to the
split in subject properties that you describe for Roon.<br>
<br>
Best, <br>
Bruno<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 2:16
PM David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Hi Bruno,</p>
<p>Your Marind example is interesting. I have nothing to
say about your language-specific analysis of it as an
Applicative, but I would appreciate further clarification
on why you consider it to be similar to the Bird's Head
examples (whatever you choose to call them).</p>
<p>You say that the instrument NP "shows at least one
subject property": What is this property? Is there a
corresponding construction without the <i>k-</i> prefix,
and if so what does it look like?</p>
<p>It occurs to me that, unlike Marind, the languages I am
looking at (both Austronesian and non-Austronesian) are
all SVO, which means that the pre-verbal position of the
instrument NP constitutes a salient feature of the
construction in question. Whereas for an SOV language
like Marind, different criteria would have to be sought.</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 22/02/2022 11:45, Bruno Olsson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi David,<br>
<br>
The Marind WITH-Applicative <i>k-</i> is similar to the
Roon data. It allows an instrument to appear as a bare
NP:<br>
<br>
<i>basik tamugh anggip k-a-k-w-alawa<br>
</i>pig food snout
NTRL.FOC-3sg.SBJ-WITH-3sg.OBJ-is.searching<br>
'The pig is searching for food with its snout.'<br>
<br>
The instrument is obligatorily preverbal in this
construction, which is the focus position in Marind, so
the above sentence would answer 'With what is the pig
searching for food?' (so unlike the construction that
Austronesianists once called Instrument Focus, this is
actual instrument focus). In my grammar I labelled this
an Applicative only for language-internal and expository
reasons, and I don't think it would qualify as an
applicative for any cross-linguistic purposes, because
the instrument NP fails to show object properties, and
instead shows at least one subject property (at the same
time, the original subject retains its subject
properties). <br>
<br>
The reason for labelling it as an (upper-case)
Applicative is that the same prefix k- can also
introduce a comitative participant, and in this
construction the comitative NP shows object properties
galore. As a Marind grammarian, I prefer to treat both
constructions as subtypes of Applicatives, rather than
positing a Instrument Voice vs. a homophonous Comitative
Applicative, but with my typologist hat on I wouldn't
call the instrument construction an applicative, as no
object properties are acquired. So I think the Marind
data is similar to what you find in the Bird's Head.
It's still in New Guinea, but language contact seems
unlikely.<br>
<br>
Best, <br>
Bruno<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 22, 2022
at 7:33 AM Martin Haspelmath <<a
href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> What is an "applicative (voice)"?<br>
<br>
There was a thread on this term on the Lingtyp List
in October 2018 (<a
href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2018-October/006630.html"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2018-October/006630.html</a>),
with some of the same participants.<br>
<br>
It seems to me that such misunderstandings will
continue as long as we think that things like
"applicative" or "voice" exist independently of how
these terms are defined. They probably don't,
because languages are far more varied, and there's
much more uncertainty, than we tend to admit.<br>
<br>
But we can propose clear and simple definitions of
"applicative voice" – and following the 2018
discussion, I wrote this paper on valency and voice
constructions where I defined applicative as a
verb-coded voice alternant with A and P in an
alternation whose other alternant has an S
corresponding to the A, and P possibly corresponding
to an oblique (§11.7):<br>
<br>
<a href="https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/005941"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/005941</a><br>
<br>
Once we have clear definitions, we can begin to
answer David's question whether languages with
instrumental applicatives only are rare outside of
Austronesian. (Polinsky 2005/2013 found "instrument
applicatives" in 29 languages, but I'm not sure what
her definition was: <a
href="https://wals.info/feature/109B"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://wals.info/feature/109B</a>)<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 22.02.22 um 05:40 schrieb Matthew Dryer:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
name="m_5557080899940333882_m_4135570100079633503__GoBack"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a>Mark says<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">However,
every text study of either passives or
applicatives, or non-core philippine-type
voice choice, shows that there is a degree
of pragmatic prominence associated with
the use of these valency-rearranging
operations. We might re-phrase the passive
and applicative characterisations as</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"> </span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">passive
promotes pragmatically-prominent object to
subject (and demotes initial
less-prominent subject to non-core)</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">applicative
promotes pragmatically-prominent
(oblique?) to object (might demote initial
(less-prominent?) object to non-core)</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, there are
applicatives which are "obligatory" for a
given semantic type. In one lg I work on,
Ktunaxa, all applicatives are obligatory in
the sense that the only way to express a
benefactive, instrumental, or comitative is to
use the relevant applicative. In Walman, the
only way to express a benefactive is to use
the applicative. Since they are obligatory,
there really isn't any pragmatic prominence
associated with these applicatives.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Matthew</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Mark
Donohue <a
href="mailto:mhdonohue@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><mhdonohue@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, February 21, 2022 at
10:24 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>David Gil <a
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><gil@shh.mpg.de></a><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Matthew Dryer <a
href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><dryer@buffalo.edu></a>,
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">"lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"</a>
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] query:
instrument voice</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi David,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The issue, as I see it,
is what we mean by 'promote'.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We can agree that</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">passive promotes object
to subject (and demotes initial subject to
non-core)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">applicative promotes
(oblique?) to object (might demote initial
object to non-core)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(and the philippine
voice is something like " … promotes
(anything) to subject (and doesn't demote
initial subject to non-core)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, every text
study of either passives or applicatives,
or non-core philippine-type voice choice,
shows that there is a degree of pragmatic
prominence associated with the use of
these valency-rearranging operations. We
might re-phrase the passive and
applicative characterisations as</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">passive promotes
pragmatically-prominent object to
subject (and demotes initial
less-prominent subject to non-core)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">applicative promotes
pragmatically-prominent (oblique?) to
object (might demote initial
(less-prominent?) object to non-core)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We typically describe
applicatives as involving just the
grammatical function change. Thus, we
have examples like this cited for
Indonesian (from Shiohara 2012):</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<ol type="1" start="1">
<li style="color:black"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">(2)a
<i>Pelayan mengambil segelas
air</i>.</span></li>
</ol>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">waiter<span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">AV</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">.take
a.glass.of water</span><span
style="color:black"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">‘The
waiter took a glass of water.’</span><span
style="color:black"></span></p>
<ol type="1" start="2">
<li style="color:black"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">(2)b
<i>Pelayan mengambil-kan tamu
segelas air</i>.<br>
waiter<span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">AV</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">.take-</span><span
style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">APPL<span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">guest
a.glass.of water<br>
‘The waiter brought the guest
a glass of water.’ (Sneddon
1996: 80)</span></li>
</ol>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As Susanna Cummings
showed, however, (2)b examples are not
really attested in naturalistic
discourse; rather, we have examples like
the following:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(2)c Tamu
di-ambil-kan segelas air (oleh pelayan).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> guest
NONACTIVE-take-APPL a.glass.of water by
waiter</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 'The waiter
brought the guest a glass of water.'</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(See also Donohue 2001
for similar data from Tukang Besi.)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, this shows that (in
some languages) the increased prominence
of the argument that was sufficient to
merit coding with an applicative
construction is also sufficient to merit a
non-active voice choice, with all that
entails. A Philippine-type voice system by
stealth, as it were.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The Tzutujil example
has an applicative suffix; and it also has
a verb with 3SG absolutive agreement (Ø),
not 1SG (the in- in the first example I
posted). It also has the requirement that
there must be overt coding of the
increased prominent of the instrument;
like Indonesian, it does that by utilising
existing high-prominence coding
strategies; unlike Indonesian, it does
that not by using a voice change, but by
using a pragmatically-marked word order
choice.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Mark</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1pt;margin-left:42.5pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Times;color:black">Donohue, Mark.
2001. Coding choices in argument
structure: Austronesian applicatives in
texts.<span> </span><i>Studies in
Language</i>25 (2): 217-254.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at
13:53, David Gil <<a
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p>Mark,</p>
<p>Thanks for the Tzutujil example, which
is indeed quite similar to the New
Guinea constructions I have been looking
at.</p>
<p>However, I remain unconvinced with
regard to its characterization as an
applicative, though to a certain degree
this is a mere terminological question.
Prototypically, applicatives promote to
direct objects while passive voices
(such as instrumental) promote to
subjects — so, for any given
construction, the question is whether
the relevant argument, here the
instrumental one, is more
direct-object-like or more subject-like.</p>
<p>This begins to remind me of the
seemingly endless ongoing debates over
whether Philippine voice constructions
are "really" passives or perhaps
something else, the question generally
boiling down to whether the relevant
argument is more like a subject or more
like a topic. Personally, I don't find
these debates very productive, and I'm
not sure how useful an analogous debate
between applicative and
instrumental-voice labels would prove to
be in this case. </p>
<p>What's important is to have a clear
description of the facts, and how the
constructions in question differ from
prototypical applicatives and from
prototypical instrumental voice
constructions — with the proviso that
there are perhaps not sufficiently many
of the latter to construct a clear
notion of what is prototypical.</p>
<p>David</p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 22/02/2022
04:26, Mark Donohue wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would agree
with Matthew that these are best
described as applicatives, but ones
in which the 'pragmatic advancement'
function monitored by an applicative
is, in addition to the grammatical
function coding changes, also
required to be monitored by the use
of a pragmatically marked word
order. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Very similar
facts are found in Tzutujil, in
which the applicative, which
indicates an instrumental role
(despite having a morpheme cognate
with the benefactive applicative
in other Mayan languages) also
requires the appearance of the
instrument object in a preverbal
role, which is a pragmatically
marked position in a verb-initial
language.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Data from
Dayley (1985).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue">Xinruuch’eyi jaa7
tza7n chee7</span></p>
<p
style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue">he:hit:me he
with stick</span></p>
<p
style="margin-right:28.35pt;margin-bottom:2pt;margin-left:59.55pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times">‘He hit me with a stick.’</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue">Chee7
x(r)uuch’eyb’ei jaa7 inin</span></p>
<p
style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue">stick
he:hit-with:it he 1SG</span></p>
<p
style="margin-right:28.35pt;margin-bottom:2pt;margin-left:59.55pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times">‘He hit me with a stick.’</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Mark</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, 22 Feb
2022 at 13:15, David Gil <<a
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
0in 0in
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p>Matthew,</p>
<p>The reason I don't call it an
applicative is that (in most
cases) the instrumental argument
must occur before the verb in a
topic-like position.</p>
<p>This can be illustrated with
the Roon instrumental prefix <i>u-</i>
in the following examples:</p>
<table
style="border-collapse:collapse"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="30"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">(1)</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:0.75in;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="72"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">*
Eros-i</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="126"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="114"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="30"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:0.75in;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="72"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">Eros-pers</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="126"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">3sg:anim-instr-chop</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="114"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">tree-3sg:anim-def<span
style="color:black">
</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">
'Eros chopped the tree'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<table
style="border-collapse:collapse"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="30"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">(2)</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:62.3pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="83"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">I-seref</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="51"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">kaman</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:22.65pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="30"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">fa</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:47.85pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="64"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">Eros-i</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="126"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="114"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="30"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:62.3pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="83"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">1sg-look.for</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="51"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">axe</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:22.65pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="30"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">for</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:47.85pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="64"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">Eros-pers</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="126"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">3sg:anim-instr-chop</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="114"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">tree-3sg:anim-def</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;color:white">
</span><span
style="font-size:10pt">'I'm
looking for an axe for Eros to
chop the tree with'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<table
style="border-collapse:collapse"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="30"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">(3)</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:67.25pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="90"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">I-seref</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="51"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">kaman</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:47.55pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="63"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">Eros-i</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="126"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk<span
style="color:black">
</span></span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:135pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="180"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya-ri-ya</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="30"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:67.25pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="90"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">1sg-look.for</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="51"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">axe</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:47.55pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="63"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">Eros-pers</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="126"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">3sg:anim-instr-chop</span></p>
</td>
<td
style="width:135pt;padding:0in
5.4pt" width="180"
valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">tree-3sg:anim-def-3sg:inan-def</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt">
'I'm looking for the axe that
Eros chopped the tree with'</span></p>
<p>Sentence (1) is ungrammatical,
and cannot be salvaged by adding
a postverbal NP or PP referring
to the axe; in this respect it
differs from typical applicative
constructions. In contrast,
sentences (2) and (3) are fine,
because the instrumental prefix
<i>u-</i> is licensed by the
preceding NP <i>kaman</i>
referring to the axe. True,
this is not exactly the same as
how things work in Philippine
languages, but it is more like
Philippine instrumental voice
than anything else I can think
of (including applicatives). In
particular, in (3), the
instrumental prefix is required
in order to license
relativization (in contrast,
relativization of other oblique
arguments is zero-marked). To
use Paul Schachter's
terminology, in both (2) and
(3), "subjecthood properties"
seem to be split between the
agent (which, as you correctly
point out, controls agreement)
and the instrument.<br>
<br>
Very similar patterns obtain in
the other Austronesian and
non-Austronesian languages that
I mentioned, which — given the
apparent rarity of this pattern
elsewhere — is strongly
suggestive of language contact.</p>
<p>David</p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
22/02/2022 03:41, Matthew
Dryer wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">David,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Why would
you not say that the
instrumental construction in
Meyah, Sougb, and Hatam is
an applicative, since the A
rather than the instrument
controls subject agreement?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Matthew</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid
rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color:black">From:
</span></b><span
style="color:black">Lingtyp
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of David
Gil <a
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<gil@shh.mpg.de></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday,
February 21, 2022 at
7:40 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">"lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"</a>
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Lingtyp]
query: instrument voice</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the
Austronesian languages of
Taiwan, Philippines and
Madagascar, there is a
verbal affix that is said to
mark "instrument voice";
loosely speaking, it marks
the topic or subject of the
clause as bearing the
semantic role of instrument.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Is
anybody familiar with
similar instrument-voice
constructions from other
parts of the world?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The
reason I ask is that a
similar construction is
present also in some
languages of the Bird's Head
and Cenderawasih Bay regions
of New Guinea, eg. Biak,
Roon, Wamesa and Wooi
(Austronesian), and Hatam,
Sougb, Meyah and Moskona
(non-Austronesian). What's
curious about this
construction is that, unlike
the well-known Austronesian
cases, it is the only
morphologically-marked voice
in each of the languages in
question; there is no
"ordinary" morphological
passive construction. My
feeling is that this
construction is quite
uncommon
cross-linguistically, but I
would like to get a feel for
the extent to which this is
indeed true.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">David</p>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>David Gil</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Senior Scientist (Associate)</pre>
<pre>Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution</pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology</pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gil@shh.mpg.de</a></pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713</pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
<pre> </pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>David Gil</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Senior Scientist (Associate)</pre>
<pre>Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution</pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology</pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gil@shh.mpg.de</a></pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713</pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
<pre> </pre>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>David Gil</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Senior Scientist (Associate)</pre>
<pre>Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution</pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology</pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gil@shh.mpg.de</a></pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713</pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
<pre> </pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></pre>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
</pre>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
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